Is the UB a Philosophical or Religious Text?

150 posts · 9 participants · started Jul 26, 2014, 4:33 PM

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   BonitaParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 3:06 PM

   TUB wrote:

   He didn’t actually tell them that he is personalized Deity. Those words would have blown their minds. It would have been to much.

   Scott, maybe you’ve forgotten the following quote?

   184:3.16 Jesus manifested no interest in any question asked him when before Annas or the Sanhedrists except the one question relative to his bestowal mission. When asked if he were the Son of God, he instantly and unequivocally answered in the affirmative.

   And a previous one:

   184:3.14 But Caiaphas could not longer endure the sight of the Master standing there in perfect composure and unbroken silence. He thought he knew at least one way in which the prisoner might be induced to speak. Accordingly, he rushed over to the side of Jesus and, shaking his accusing finger in the Master’s face, said: “I adjure you, in the name of the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Deliverer, the Son of God.” Jesus answered Caiaphas: “I am. Soon I go to the Father, and presently shall the Son of Man be clothed with power and once more reign over the hosts of heaven.”

   Then there’s this one:

   186:2.2 When asked if he were the Son of God, he unfailingly made reply.

   And yes, it was too much for those people, that is why they murdered him thinking they could eliminate his revelation.  But some people did recognize him, embrace him and had their lives transformed.

   TUB wrote:

   TUB is much more ambitious, its telling us that we are sons and daughters of a loving Father but its also telling us that we are cosmic citizens.Its building off the 4th and giving a much greater revelation than what Jesus gave.

   Yes of course, that’s why it’s called the 5th epochal revelation.  Epochal revelations are not just repeats of previous revelations, they are “ever-expanding and successively more enlightening.” (92:4.1) The mission of revelation is “to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution.” (92:4.1)

   Jesus also taught about cosmic citizenship, but it was geared to the 1st century mind.  There’s nothing new about cosmic citizenry, it just that modern man has a better understanding of the physical cosmos and most people understand that we are not alone.  The UB reveals that we indeed are not alone and that the cosmos is not only physical, but morontial and spiritual as well.  And yes, that is blowing people’s minds.  How many UB readers have gone off the deep end  . . . just sayin’.

    

    

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   TUBParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 3:14 PM

   Scott, maybe you’ve forgotten the following quote?

   184:3.16 Jesus manifested no interest in any question asked him when before Annas or the Sanhedrists except the one question relative to his bestowal mission. When asked if he were the Son of God, he instantly and unequivocally answered in the affirmative.

   And a previous one:

   184:3.14 But Caiaphas could not longer endure the sight of the Master standing there in perfect composure and unbroken silence. He thought he knew at least one way in which the prisoner might be induced to speak. Accordingly, he rushed over to the side of Jesus and, shaking his accusing finger in the Master’s face, said: “I adjure you, in the name of the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Deliverer, the Son of God.” Jesus answered Caiaphas: “I am. Soon I go to the Father, and presently shall the Son of Man be clothed with power and once more reign over the hosts of heaven.”

   Then there’s this one:

   186:2.2 When asked if he were the Son of God, he unfailingly made reply.

    

   Where does he use the word Deity here? Or “personalized Deity”? Deity and God are two different concepts.

    

   And yes, that is blowing people’s minds.  How many UB readers have gone off the deep end  . . . just sayin’.

   Yea I don’t think the book is meant for people who haven’t found God in the 4th epochal revelation. Or people who are not at least capable of being civilized. There are a lot of ways to go off the deep end with this stuff. That is why I wouldn’t go to a primitive country and hand this book out. All the people would be reading about is how primitive they are and how primitive everything they do is. Or maybe they would go to the other end of the danger spectrum and start counting their psychic circles and start thinking that they can have conversations with their TA in their head if they just try hard enough.

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   BonitaParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 4:08 PM

   TUB wrote: Spiritual insight originates in our moral consciousness/philosophical consciousness and that spiritual insight accrues as a result of the presence of the God-revealing Thought Adjuster. The word accrue just means that something has increased in value, like interest.

   Well, here again our interpretations are entirely different.  According to my dictionary, accrue means to arise from, ensue from, be caused by.  Spiritual insight arises from, ensues from and is caused by the Adjuster.  That is why it is a gift.

   The soil for the growth of spiritual insight is the moral consciousness.  The revelators use the metaphor of soil and seeds to make sure we understand that the source of spiritual insight is not in the soil, but in the light shining down on the soil.  In this next quote it states that morality is NOT the source of spiritual insight. Spiritual insight does not originate in the moral consciousness. Moral consciousness is the source of God-consciousness.  The first moral decision is evidence of God-consciousness and hence the entry into the 7th psychic circle.

   196:3.25 Morality is the essential pre-existent soil of personal God-consciousness, the personal realization of the Adjuster’s inner presence, but such morality is not the source of religious experience and the resultant spiritual insight. 

   TUB wrote: That is why I said in another post that we can all have a True Philosophical consciousness just by grace, because these insights are there innately in cosmic mind. Its just they need to be grown.

   Actually, the three reality recognition responses are not insights, they are intuitions and intuitions are like reflexes.  Cosmic intuitions don’t grow, they are constant innate qualities of cosmic mind.  They remain the same all of the time, it is the mind which responds to them that grows or evolves.  When thought lines up properly with the cosmic mind, it works like gravity and results in a reality reflex response, one of three, depending upon the level of reality the thought concerns. When all three reality recognition responses ping – bingo! you have your 3-fold concept of reality. Thoughts that are reality based gravitationally respond to the pull of the cosmic mind which takes the form of a reality recognition response, a sort of handshake with the cosmic mind.   Now admittedly, this is a very basic explanation because I’m trying to keep it simple, but I’m sure you’ll understand what I’m saying.

   16:6.4 This reality sensitivity of the cosmic mind responds to certain phases of reality just as energy-material responds to gravity. It would be still more correct to say that these supermaterial realities so respond to the mind of the cosmos.

   TUB wrote: These 3 intuitions are the 3 intuitions of the Holy Spirit.

   Not exactly.  The cosmic mind is impersonal and personal beings cannot utilize impersonal mind without it being made personal.  The Holy Spirit’s presence, as a person, individualizes a portion of the cosmic mind and makes it accessible to each personality that has entered the 7th psychic circle.

   TUB wrote:The 3rd cosmic intuition is quite literally spiritual insight.

   There is no literal evidence that what you say is true. It’s not written anywhere.  You seem to have inferred it, which is fine, being part of your interpretation.   But I read that the 3rd cosmic intuition is a recognition response and a recognition response is not the same as spiritual insight. They are two different things, just like cosmic insight is not the same as spiritual insight.   I think we should start a new thread on just what spiritual insight is.  I think it detracts from the purpose of this thread which was intended to discuss whether or not the UB is a philosophical or religious revelation.

    

    

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   BonitaParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 4:18 PM

   TUB wrote:Where does he use the word Deity here? Or “personalized Deity”? Deity and God are two different concepts.

   Scott, personalized Deity is God.

   0:1.2  Deity is personalizable as God, is prepersonal and superpersonal in ways not altogether comprehensible by man. Deity is characterized by the quality of unity — actual or potential — on all supermaterial levels of reality; and this unifying quality is best comprehended by creatures as divinity.

   0:2.6 God is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity.

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   TUBParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 4:23 PM

   Well, here again our interpretations are entirely different.  According to my dictionary, accrue means to arise from, ensue from, be caused by.  Spiritual insight arises from, ensues from and is caused by the Adjuster.  That is why it is a gift.

   Well here is a very detailed definition, I don’t know where you got your definition from. They even use interest as an example to help explain what it means. Someone can accrue interest, its a common term that bankers use.

   http://www.thefreedictionary.com/accrue

   ac·crue  (-kr) v.ac·crued, ac·cru·ing, ac·crues v.intr. 1. To come to one as a gain, addition, or increment: interest accruing in my savings account. 2. To increase, accumulate, or come about as a result of growth: common sense that accrues with experience. 3. To come into existence as a claim that is legally enforceable. v.tr. To accumulate over time: I have accrued 15 days of sick leave. [Middle Englishacreuen, from Old Frenchacreu, past participle ofacroistre, to increase, add, from Latinaccrscere, to grow : ad-, ad- + crscere, to arise; seeker-2in Indo-European roots.] ac·crua·ble adj. ac·cruement n.

   The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

   ---

   accrue (əˈkruː)

   vb (intr) , -crues, -cruingor-crued

   1. (Banking & Finance) to increase by growth or addition, esp (of capital) to increase by periodic addition of interest

   2. (often foll by to) to fall naturally (to); come into the possession (of); result (for)

   3. (Law)law(of a right or demand) to become capable of being enforced

    

    

    

    

   Bonita: But I read that the 3rd cosmic intuition is a recognition response and a recognition response is not the same as spiritual insight

    

   Spiritual insight IS the recognition response. What do you think the 3rd cosmic recognition response is exactly? Its a spiritual recognition response.

    

   ^{(192.5) 16:6.9} These scientific, moral, and spiritual insights, these cosmic responses, are innate in the cosmic mind, which endows all will creatures. The experience of living never fails to develop these three cosmic intuitions; they are constitutive in the self-consciousness of reflective thinking.

    

   ^{(192.7) 16:6.11} It is the purpose of education to develop and sharpen these innate endowments of the human mind;

    

   They are flat out calling these cosmic responses “scientific, moral and spiritual insights” which are innate in cosmic mind. That means they come directly from this mind that is the mind of the Local Mother Spirit loaned to us. Spiritual insight is literally one of the cosmic responses.
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   BonitaParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 4:57 PM

   TUB wrote: They even use interest as an example to help explain what it means.

   Yes, but where does that interest come from?  It results from an investment, it arises from an investment, it ensues from an investment.  Spiritual insight is what accrues from the investment made by planting the seeds in the soil.   It’s the basis of several of Jesus’ parables.

   TUB wrote: What do you think the 3rd cosmic recognition response is exactly? Its a spiritual recognition response.

   I’m quite certain it is a cosmic recognition response which occurs on the spiritual level of reality. But that doesn’t make it the same thing as spiritual insight; it’s a recognition of spiritual value.  Remember, in terms of insight, first we discover then we recognize.   It’s not really spiritual insight until the Adjuster (Spirit) spiritizes it and makes it ready for action.  The cosmic ping of recognition signals readiness of our minds to allow spiritization by the Adjuster.  That’s when it becomes spiritual insight.  Spiritual insight means to commune with the “mind of the spirit”.  You cannot have spiritual insight without communing with Spirit. The cosmic mind is NOT spirit; it is mind that recognizes spirit.

   p1104:06 All such inner and spiritual communion is termed spiritual insight.

   TUB wrote: They are flat out calling these cosmic responses “scientific, moral and spiritual insights”

   This is splitting hairs but I’ll try.  The sentence is referring to three different insights into reality known as cosmic responses: scientific, moral and spiritual.   It is not saying that an insight functioning as a cosmic response on the spiritual level of reality is the same as spiritual insight.  They wouldn’t exclude the Adjuster who is necessary for spiritual insight.  So literally, they’re saying that the cosmic response on a spiritual level provides insight into the spiritual level of cosmic reality, which is not the same as saying it is literally spiritual insight.  They are two different things, albeit related.  The recognition response is merely the second step necessary for the accrual of spiritual insight.  The next step requires the Adjuster.

    

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   TUBParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 5:18 PM

   ^{(1105.2)101:1.5} While religion is not the product of the rationalistic speculations of a material cosmology, it is, nonetheless, the creation of a wholly rational insight which originates in man’s mind-experience. Religion is born neither of mystic meditations nor of isolated contemplations, albeit it is ever more or less mysterious and always indefinable and inexplicable in terms of purely intellectual reason and philosophic logic. The germs of true religion originate in the domain of man’s moral consciousness, and they are revealed in the growth of man’s spiritual insight, that faculty of human personality which accrues as a consequence of the presence of the God-revealing Thought Adjuster in the God-hungry mortal mind.

   Yes, but where does that interest come from?  It results from an investment, it arises from an investment, it ensues from an investment.  Spiritual insight is what accrues from the investment made by planting the seeds in the soil.   It’s the basis of several of Jesus’ parables.

   The paragraph is just talking about the accrue of spiritual insight/ the growth of spiritual insight nothing more. It is not even bringing up the topic of where spiritual insight comes from. A Material Son or Daughter who is living on our planet does not have a Thought Adjuster yet they still have spiritual insight. They don’t even have a soul and yet they have spiritual insight. How is that possible? Its because of mind. They can experience a cosmic consciousness with spiritual insight regardless of whether or not they have an adjuster. They don’t even need a soul.

    

    So literally, they’re saying that the cosmic response on a spiritual level provides insight into the spiritual level of cosmic reality, which is not the same as saying it is literally spiritual insight

   The only way to have insight into spiritual matters is to have spiritual insight. If we don’t have spiritual insight we can’t have insight into the spiritual level of cosmic reality. The authors restate these 3 cosmic intuitions here.

   16:7.5 When man fails to discriminate the ends of his mortal striving, he finds himself functioning on the animal level of existence. He has failed to avail himself of the superior advantages of that material acumen, moral discrimination, and spiritual insight which are an integral part of his cosmic-mind endowment as a personal being.

    

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   BonitaParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 6:00 PM

   TUB wrote:

   A Material Son or Daughter who is living on our planet does not have a Thought Adjuster yet they still have spiritual insight. They don’t even have a soul and yet they have spiritual insight. How is that possible? Its because of mind. They can experience a cosmic consciousness with spiritual insight regardless of whether or not they have an adjuster. They don’t even need a soul.

   Material Sons and Daughters do not have human minds.  Their minds are presumably derived from a much higher individualization of the cosmic mind capable of unbroken intellectual synchrony with the mind-gravity circuit of the Infinite Spirit (75:7.5; 51:1.5). Mind-gravity is also their source of immortality, which is interesting.  Their minds were functioning on the Jerusem level of existence. We cannot compare our minds with theirs, we’re too far removed and further down the mind-ladder than they.

   TUB wrote:

   The only way to have insight into spiritual matters is to have spiritual insight.

   So the only way to have spiritual insight is to have spiritual insight?  That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

   The UB says you have to have inner communion with the Adjuster in order to have spiritual insight.  I think you might be talking about cosmic insight into spiritual reality, which is a different thing.  Related, but different. Cosmic insight is simply the grasp of cosmic meaning (16:8.12).  They use the word grasp there like they use the word gravity, or response.  Cosmic insight is capable of discerning the spiritual level of reality, but spiritual insight is a relationship with spiritual reality.  The Thought Adjuster supplies that relationship.

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   TUBParticipant
   Aug 8, 2014, 6:46 PM

   Material Sons and Daughters do not have human minds.  Their minds are presumably derived from a much higher individualization of the cosmic mind capable of unbroken intellectual synchrony with the mind-gravity circuit of the Infinite Spirit (75:7.5; 51:1.5). Mind-gravity is also their source of immortality, which is interesting.  Their minds were functioning on the Jerusem level of existence. We cannot compare our minds with theirs, we’re too far removed and further down the mind-ladder than they.

    

   What about a midwayer we are not that far removed from them on the mind-latter. They don’t have souls or an adjuster and they still have spiritual insight. The higher forms of mind are just variations of the cosmic mind.  Spiritual insight is simply spiritual insight. I don’t understand why you are trying to change the definition of the word spiritual insight into something else.

    

   The only way to have insight into spiritual matters is to have spiritual insight.

   So the only way to have spiritual insight is to have spiritual insight?  That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

    

    

    

   I think you mix my words around often, but that is alright. If the minds eye is not spiritual how can we see any spiritual reality? If the minds eye is spiritual that means we have spiritual sight (spiritual insight). Either way the authors are telling us that spiritual insight is an innate endowment of cosmic mind. It seems very straight forward to me and not worth debating.

    

   “…and spiritual insight which are an integral part of his cosmic-mind endowment as a personal being.”

   ^{192.5) 16:6.9} These scientific, moral, and spiritual insights, these cosmic responses, are innate in the cosmic mind, which endows all will creatures. The experience of living never fails to develop these three cosmic intuitions; they are constitutive in the self-consciousness of reflective thinking.

    ^{(192.7) 16:6.11} It is the purpose of education to develop and sharpen these innate endowments of the human mind;

10. R

    ReaderParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 7:43 PM
    Bonita wrote:I think we should start a new thread on just what spiritual insight is. I think it detracts from the purpose of this thread which was intended to discuss whether or not the UB is a philosophical or religious revelation.

    I think a new thread is a good idea (Bonita, it’s your suggestion and your lead, as long as the great points already made by you and TUB are reviewed in the initial post).

    But TUB, it is not a valid procedure to offer a dictionary citation containing multiple senses of a word unless the writer chooses one for themselves among those listed. They are not listed as hints to an underlying meaning, and we get only ambiguity if we try to ‘morph’ a definition out of a combination of separate senses. There is no real purpose to a dictionary unless we are enabled by it to make a distinction between the various senses in which a word is used. Which of the three listed, then, do you think most closely defines your idea?

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    BonitaParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 7:46 PM

    TUB wrote:

    What about a midwayer we are not that far removed from them on the mind-latter.

    There are two types of midwayers.  Secondary midwayers have access to the spirits of worship and wisdom and are intellectually endowed with the morontia transition type of mind, which is like the mind of our souls.  Primary midwayers use the angelic technique which has inherent spiritual insight capability.  Presumably their minds have the capacity to be in contact with spirit presence.  In order to have spiritual insight there has to be a relationship with a spirit personality, probably the Creator Son and Spirit in their case (32:3.6).

    Personality is essential to spiritual insight because spiritual insight is God-consciousness. God-consciousness is not just being conscious of the intellectual idea of God at the mind level, it is to know God as a personal experience.  Spiritual insight is not solely a mind function.  Cosmic mind is impersonal, it cannot provide spiritual insight, it can only provide recognition of spirit reality and that is it.  To see spirit, one must have an actual spirit to look at, otherwise you’re looking at something imaginary.  I don’t know how simpler to put it.  I’m wondering if other people are having similar difficulty in understanding what I’m trying to say.

    TUB wrote:

    If the minds eye is not spiritual how can we see any spiritual reality?

    The material mind doesn’t see spiritual reality, it becomes conscious of a spiritual reaction because of an experience of the soul.  Spiritual reality can only be experienced, which is why it is a phenomenon of personality .  It is the soul that experiences spiritual reality and the soul is a relationship with God, a spirit person.

     

    p1136:1 103:6.6 Man experiences matter in his mind; he experiences spiritual reality in the soul but becomes conscious of this experience in his mind.

     

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    BonitaParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 7:57 PM
    Reader wrote:

    I think a new thread is a good idea (Bonita, it’s your suggestion and your lead, as long as the great points already made by you and TUB are reviewed in the initial post).

    Hmmm.  That’s a ton of work.  So, if I start the thread I have to post a summary of all my points made so far and then Scott would summarize his?  I’ll think about it.  I’m kinda lazy ya know.  Meanwhile, how about a more general topic like, “What’s the Difference Between the Various Insights?” I think starting out with a question is the best way to get conversation going. Or maybe we’ve already beaten this thing to death.

13. R

    ReaderParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 8:10 PM

    Well, anything would do really, to enable writers to examine the revealed hints about cosmic and spiritual insight in a new thread.

     

14. R

    ReaderParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 8:23 PM

    In response to the original Philosophical-or-Religious question of this thread, I think that the revelators would be OK with the emphasis on philosophy provided we kept in mind their idea of philosophy – a kind of method of viewing the world which allows a responsible scientific attitude to co-exist in the same dome alongside a living, growing religious appreciation of total reality. A good philosophy simply allows the mind of a scientist to coexist with the soul of a religious believer without necessitating a division of personality or a compartmentalization of experience.

    This the UB achieves by providing a new, revealed cosmology in conjunction with an enhanced view of spirit realities.

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    BonitaParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 8:56 PM

    I like it Reader.

    My problem was with the statement that the UB is NOT a religious text, but a philosophical text.  I agree with you that the revelators give philosophy credence but that does not take away from the fact that the book is called an epochal religious revelation.

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    TUBParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 10:26 PM

    I agree with Reader, there are a lot of other topics that are really a different topic. A new thread would help.

    Spiritual reality can only be experienced, which is why it is a phenomenon of personality .  It is the soul that experiences spiritual reality and the soul is a relationship with God, a spirit person.

    If spiritual insight is innate in cosmic endowed minds, don’t you think that cosmic mind can experience spiritual reality? Morontia mind is just a higher form of our mind. Morontia mind is a cosmic mind variant.

    ^{192.5) 16:6.9} These scientific, moral, and spiritual insights, these cosmic responses, are innate in the cosmic mind, which endows all will creatures.

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    BonitaParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 10:44 PM

    TUB wrote:

    If spiritual insight is innate in cosmic endowed minds, don’t you think that cosmic mind can experience spiritual reality?

    Think about that.  Cosmic mind is impersonal.  How can it experience anything?

    TUB wrote:

    Morontia mind is a cosmic mind variant.

    The morontia mind is associated with the cosmic mind; it evolves by direct contact with cosmic mind.  Morontia mind is a dual mind dominated by one will.

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    TUBParticipant
    Aug 8, 2014, 10:47 PM

    Think about that.  Cosmic mind is impersonal.  How can it experience anything?

    The phrase “cosmic endowed minds” is a reference to someone who is endowed with a cosmic mind. I thought that was a given, but I guess it wasn’t.

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    BonitaParticipant
    Aug 9, 2014, 3:16 PM

    Bradley offered this quote on another thread:

    (1124.5) 102:6.3 The religionist of philosophic attainment has faith in a personal God of personal salvation, something more than a reality, a value, a level of achievement, an exalted process, a transmutation, the ultimate of time-space, an idealization, the personalization of energy, the entity of gravity, a human projection, the idealization of self, nature’s upthrust, the inclination to goodness, the forward impulse of evolution, or a sublime hypothesis. The religionist has faith in a God of love. Love is the essence of religion and the wellspring of superior civilization.

    What do you suppose they mean by “philosophic attainment”?  I know they describe, more or less, a 4-fold perception of a personal God as the result of philosophic attainment.  But, how do you achieve “philosophic attainment”?

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    BradlyParticipant
    Aug 9, 2014, 4:30 PM

    Bonita wrote:

    But, how do you achieve “philosophic attainment”?

    I think it is by first, the ministry of the Adjutants of wisdom and worship, second by the witness and testimony of the Spirit of Truth and TA, or personal revelation, third by the deliverance of Epochal Revelation – but then, by the unification of these witnesses, testimonies, and revelators by the harmonization of mind – the personalized and experiential philosophical unification of religion and science – or “philosophical attainment”.   ??????  Truth filled or truthful perspective of cosmology, origin, destiny, cause, and effect.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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