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Is the UB a Philosophical or Religious Text?

150 posts · 9 participants · started Jul 26, 2014, 4:33 PM

BonitaParticipant
Jul 26, 2014, 4:33 PM
Recently I heard Chris Halvorson say, “This is a philosophical text. It is not a religious text.” He makes this statement about the Urantia Book within the first three minutes of this audio file: http://www.perfectinghorizons.org/AudioFiles/20130322.mp3

I believe this statement needs clarification. Perhaps Chris does clarify it elsewhere, I don’t know, but I have heard others repeat it as though it were fact. I’m disinclined to accept this statement on face value alone. Is it possible that the text is both philosophical and religious? How about scientific?

If the Fifth Epochal Revelation is not a religious revelation, then why was this written: (92:4.4) There have been many events of religious revelation but only five of epochal significance.

Does Chris mean that the Urantia Papers are not scripture? If so, I can accept that. But to say that it is not religious makes no sense to me. Any thoughts?
BradlyParticipant
Jul 26, 2014, 4:53 PM
Well, it defines religion – actually re-defines, it describes the progressive activities of religion, it describes the fruits, and the destiny of religionists, and claims nothing else is as important as religion…including facts, knowledge, beliefs, and doctrinally based ceremonies – potential elements in religious experience. It expands the 4th revelation of the Master whose gospel was religious. It connects love, truth, beauty, goodness, faith, and service as the greatest elements in religion. Not a religious text? Hmmmmm……I don’t get it.

It does promote the unifying power of philosophy to bridge/unite science and religion, both seeking the same point of understanding source and destiny and Diety’s creation. And it upholds the scientific method and triune governance and social progress….all as elements of progress in the spirit – religious experience and reality results thereby. It is foolish to diminish its spectrum when it is delivered as a unifier of truth and fact, universal reality. Religion is seeking that reality or it is not religious.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Jul 26, 2014, 5:58 PM

Bradly wrote:

It expands the 4th revelation of the Master whose gospel was religious.

Here again, Chris says in the same 3 minutes of the audio file, that the Fifth Epochal Revelation is not an augmentation of the Fourth. That statement doesn’t ring true with me either. If revelation is meant to up step evolution, then it must include what has already evolved up to the point of the appearance of revelation (92:4.1). Isn’t that the definition of augmentation, to enlarge, improve and supplement what is already there? In fact, there is a whole section in TUB entitled, Religion Expanded by Revelation. Isn’t that augmentation?
nelsongParticipant
Jul 26, 2014, 6:07 PM
I have always thought of it as a book that beautifully blends religion, philosophy and science.

Fact is that it really is just a book. These things called religion, philosophy and science – even when beautifully blended are in fact, experiences that happen in the mind.
TUBParticipant
Jul 26, 2014, 8:14 PM
Chris has hours of discussion where he talks about this.

True Philosophy is actually the super-additive consequence of the mixture between True Science and True Religion. So the book is unifying True Science and True Religion. You can’t have True Philosophy without True Religion and True Science. True Philosophy is IMO like a power-personality synthesis, where you take the personal elements of religion and mix them with the power energy facts of science and you end up with something that is unlike either ingredient. It’s a viewpoint of the whole of reality mixed in with the personal elements of God and religion. It’s a cosmic viewpoint instead of a merely religious or merely scientific viewpoint.

Another example I use to picture this is the nature of Universal Absolute (Infinite Upholder). This facet of Deity is the super additive result of mixing the Infinite reservoirs of potentiality (Deity Absolute/Reservoir of Spirit) and the (Unqualified Absolute/Reservoir of Matter).

So the 4th epochal revelation gave us True Religion. It was clearly a religious revelation. The 5th is combining that True Religion with True Science and ending up with True Philosophy. True Philosophy is IMO this holistic viewpoint of the whole (cosmic consciousness).

And by having a reflective cosmic consciousness we are IMO able to identify with the whole of reality. Because our cosmos really do exist as one whole. With this consciousness we then engage God with a more objective personal consciousness and each other as well as the universe.

On the mansion worlds our philosophy joins up with superphilosophy (mota) and then mota joins up with a greater philosophical insight (Insight of Absonity).

Science, philosophy and religion and truth beauty and goodness is all one reality. It’s 3-folds of the same one reality.

When people hear the word philosophy they immediately think of some elaborate rationalization scheme. Thats not at all what it is.
TUBParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 2:06 AM
Here is a good audio where Chris explains True Philosophy in TUB using these the paragraphs (^2093.6) ^196:3. ),^(2094.1) ^196:3.2 . (start listening at the 45 minute mark)

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/symmetryofsoul/2013/02/20/jesushis-living-faith-part-3
BonitaParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 2:54 PM
Thanks for the link Scott. I listened from the 45 minute mark for over a half hour and had to stop. I find listening to these things very tedious and boring. It’s not my style. I don’t mean that to be a criticism of the radio station or the people talking on it. I just don’t have the patience to listen to droning voices. My bad. But even so, in that half hour I listened, I didn’t hear Chris say anything to explain why the Revelation is a philosophical text. Furthermore, it is not my intention to make this thread about him and his opinions, although from what I can tell, he may be the originator of the idea. Don’t know for sure.

nelsong wrote:

. . . these things called religion, philosophy and science – even when beautifully blended are in fact, experiences that happen in the mind.

Yes, I agree. Everything happens in the mind (102:2.5) Mind is the arena in which the meanings of both facts and values are united in order to arrive at a concept of complete reality (101:5.2). I believe the Urantia Book is for the mind, (which is perhaps why Chris says it’s philosophical). Earlier epochal revelations were physical, living manifestations of the nature of God presented to miracle-minded men and women who needed to see, hear and feel with their physical senses. But this epochal revelation has arrived to illuminate the mind as to the nature of the indwelling God using words alone. Those words are meant to be exposed to the divine luminosity within the soul which is capable of uniting science, philosophy and religion into a practical and meaningful expression of the living God. I believe this is a sign of real progress in human spiritual evolution, that words alone can shed light on the world.

Being a revelatory text, the UB is meant to assist philosophy, not be philosophy. This is necessary because of the failure of metaphysics and due to a lack of appreciation of morontia mota. Without revelation, philosophy would devolve into mere logic and be hopelessly hampered in its ability to harmonize the external world of facts with the internal world of spirit. I do not believe that the UB is a philosophical text for that reason. Revelation is invariably a spiritual phenomenon (101:4.5). Revelation assists in unifying the outer viewpoint of man with the creative inner viewpoint of a cosmic citizen and faith-son of God as a personal religious experience. Therefore, the UB is, in its essence, is really a religious text.
TUBParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 4:12 PM
The mission statement of the authors is essentially a philosophical one “in an endeavour to expand cosmic consciousness”. A cosmic consciousness is a philosophical consciousness. Its within the triune harmony of a holistic philosophical consciousness that science, religion and philosophy are unified. A merely religious consciousness is not capable of viewing 3-fold reality as the authors suggest in ^(2094.1) ^196:3.2 and as Chris notes in that broadcast. “Philosophy yields unity”. Its through the wisdom of philosophy that we engage a the whole in mind.

The revelation is co-ordinating science, philosophy and religion together into one whole. Philosophy is what co-ordinates triune reality in mind, philosophy also yields a co-ordinate consciousness.

The reason that no one assumes TUB is a philosophical book is because humans have never had a clear idea of what philosophy is. To get True Philosophy you need True Religion and True Science.
BonitaParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 4:43 PM
It’s not just cosmic consciousness that the revelators are endeavoring to do, they are also attempting to enhance spiritual perception. Spirit is meant to eventually dominate mind. Philosophy is a mind function. It can operate along the full gamut from material to spiritual. The Spirit of Truth is the gift of spiritual philosophy (101:3.2). This means that Michael is a personal presence within the mind assisting the soul in recognizing the relationship between external factual reality (science) and the internal religious, or spiritual reality of the Adjuster. He is all about relations (56:10.13) and revealing the triune interrelatedness of all reality in an individually recognizable and actionable manner (101:6.7). And all of this is very religious and spiritual. Again, the goal is spiritual dominance over the philosophy of mind.

The religious consciousness is fully capable of viewing a triune reality as science, philosophy and truth (196:3.2). In fact, religious consciousness is itself a cosmic, or universe reality (5:5.12). It’s my opinion that cosmic consciousness, rather than philosophy, is a triune consciousness. How can you have a complete triune concept with only one part of the triad? You need all three: science, philosophy and religion, or better yet, thing, meaning, and value. And all three have to be unified by personality in experience.

Below is a page on cosmic consciousness from my book the Holy Spirit.

Cosmic consciousness is an experiential consciousness, part of the evolution of the Supreme. The cosmic mind is made accessible to personality by the ministration of the Holy Spirit, a personal supermind ministry; and when combined with the presence of the Adjuster, creates the capacity for spiritual insight.

Cosmic consciousness is a personality realization of the interrelatedness of a trifold experience which is functionally inter-associated This requires a recognition of cosmic values and their potential for actualization. It is a process which begins in the seventh psychic, or cosmic, circle and evolves through to the first circle with ever increasing cosmic consciousness.

Reality recognition, innate in the self-consciousness of personality, requires the quest of discovery as a first step. Once value is discovered, a reaction takes place with cosmic mind gravity, much like a universe handshake, a grasping form of recognition. The discovery, then recognized, must progress by the interpretation of meaning through experience. This indicates that the mind has identified a correlation or interrelatedness with other reality experiences. It is like an interlocking of puzzle pieces, a viola! moment of one’s personal relationship and identification with cosmic reality.

The more meanings and values recognized and chosen, the more potentials made actual, the more conscious one becomes of a trifold relationship with cosmic reality, the Supreme Being. This involves not only a cosmic mind recognition response, but an integrated personality validation through decision-action derived from cooperation with the triune spiritual forces within the soul (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Cosmic consciousness grows along with the soul as the personality obtains cosmic insight into value and dares to actualize its meaning through living experience, thereby augmenting the soul’s awareness of its relation and contribution to the cosmos. (The Holy Spirit: A Study for Urantia Book Readers, 2014, pg. 21)
TUBParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 5:05 PM
The authors are essentially telling us that this revelation is philosophical in this paragraph.

^(1105.5) ^101:2.1 The fact of religion consists wholly in the religious experience of rational and average human beings. And this is the only sense in which religion can ever be regarded as scientific or even psychological. The proof that revelation is revelation is this same fact of human experience: the fact that revelation does synthesize the apparently divergent sciences of nature and the theology of religion into a consistent and logical universe philosophy, a co-ordinated and unbroken explanation of both science and religion, thus creating a harmony of mind and satisfaction of spirit which answers in human experience those questionings of the mortal mind which craves to know how the Infinite works out his will and plans in matter, with minds, and on spirit.

Spiritual perception is what gets infused into a moral/philosophical consciousness. That’s what makes it True Philosophy. Philosophy is not negating religion, its being infused with True Religion.

This is what Chris touched on in that broadcast and this is where the authors give us a on-ramp into philosophy.

^(2094.1) ^196:3.2 There are just three elements in universal reality: fact, idea, and relation. The religious consciousness identifies these realities as science, philosophy, and truth. Philosophy would be inclined to view these activities as reason, wisdom, and faith — physical reality, intellectual reality, and spiritual reality. We are in the habit of designating these realities as thing, meaning, and value.

Philosophy views 3-fold reality as (physical reality, intellectual reality, and spiritual reality) and (reason, wisdom, faith). In that paragraph philosophy got taken out of the picture and it gets replaced by wisdom. Science also got taken out of the picture and was replaced with physical reality and religion go taken out of the picture and replaced with spiritual reality. A religious consciousness merely “identifies” 3-fold reality as (science, philosophy and truth). Instead of truth relating to the whole 3-fold picture it only relates to spiritual reality. A religious consciousness is unable to view truth relating to all 3-fold reality as philosophy does, its also fundamentally biased when it just places truth in the 3rd facet of reality. Philosophy is actually seeing the activities in those 3 fields that we call (science, philosophy religion).

You can’t even get a picture of complete reality with philosophy as stated in this paragraph.

^(1110.5) ^101:5.2 Science deals with facts; religion is concerned only with values. Through enlightened philosophy the mind endeavors to unite the meanings of both facts and values, thereby arriving at a concept of complete reality. Remember that science is the domain of knowledge, philosophy the realm of wisdom, and religion the sphere of the faith experience. But religion, nonetheless, presents two phases of manifestation:

This is what TUB is doing its uniting both facts and values and arriving at a concept of complete reality. Philosophy does relate to mind but its through mind that man progresses. A material consciousness combined with a spiritual consciousness is much more powerful and potent than either one alone.
TUBParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 5:09 PM
The philosophic realm is also the moral realm. A philosophic consciousness is a moral consciousness. ^(192.3) ^16:6.7 2. Duty — the reality domain of morals in the philosophic realm, the arena of reason, the recognition of relative right and wrong. This is the judicial form of the cosmic discrimination.

A spiritually moral consciousness=philosophical consciousness=cosmic consciousness. Its all the same thing.
BonitaParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 5:53 PM
Scott, we’re saying the same thing about philosophy in different ways. But that is not the issue here. I am not convinced that the UB is ONLY a philosophical text. It contains philosophy, but its purpose is much more. Chris stated it is NOT a religious text and I disagree with that wholeheartedly. The UB is a revelational text and revelation is always a spiritual phenomenon (101:4.5). That is indisputable. The fact that revelation must be validated by human experience is where philosophy comes into play. But that does not change the spiritual or religious origins of revelation.

The religious consciousness is God-consciousness (5:5.12). To say, “A religious consciousness is unable to view truth relating to all 3-fold reality as philosophy does . . .” ignores the fact that God-consciousness is in itself a triune reality experience (5:5.11). Even the text states clearly that religious consciousness has a triune view (196:3.2).

The revelations in the UB are written for the morontia soul. Philosophy is for the material mind, not the soul. Soul philosophy is morontia philosophy, or mota, which is why the presence of the Spirit of Truth is so helpful in relating the parts to the whole (as a revelation of the Supreme). “Without the insight of mota, mortal man cannot discern goodness, love, and truth in the phenomena of the material world.”(103:6.13) It is also why the revelators rely so heavily on the Spirit of Truth’s assistance in making the revelation accessible to the soul for enlightenment, which is in itself, a spiritual or religious experience. And that is why they say that revelation is always a spiritual phenomenon.

Philosophy is about wisdom, but religion is about eternal survival. Wisdom is not a criteria for survival. The entire text of the UB is devoted to revealing the opportunity of survival and what it entails both here presently and in the future. And although it is our thoughts that lead us Godward, it only requires a flicker of faith in the reality of God to begin the journey. Nowhere does it say that survival depends upon an enlightened philosophy.
TUBParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 6:56 PM
True Philosophy is spiritual. Chris did say that the revelation is not a religious revelation but he also stated that it contains True Religion in it and that is the only way to have True Philosophy.

Religion experienced in a Moral/Philosophical consciousness is True Religion. By taking up a philosophical consciousness we are able to be truly religious. That’s why all these quotes about philosophy are in the sections on religion. Philosophy takes religion to its supremacy.

Survival of this life has nothing to do with religion or philosophy because we all have a soul thanks to Jesus bestowing his SOT and us all getting adjusters. But in terms of eternal survival in the next life we will have to take up a philosophical consciousness. The notion that we can live without facts and not harmonize those facts with religion is false. The only way to even have a wholly religious experience is through a holistic consciousness that views 3-fold triune reality. Our personal nature cannot function in a unbalanced mind. We need to bring the fact of God together with the personal aspect of God and we need to bring together the facts of science with the values of religion. A philosophical consciousness much like this revelation co-ordinates 3-fold reality into one holistic viewpoint of reality. A philosophic consciousness is a co-ordinate consciousness. That’s the only way to even arrive at a viewpoint of reality “Through enlightened philosophy the mind endeavors to unite the meanings of both facts and values, thereby arriving at a concept of complete reality”.. We can’t even begin to go anywhere until we view reality.

Also soul consciousness and the soul are very much like a philosophical consciousness. The soul is literally being made by stranding together material and spiritual fibres together to form a patterned self (warp and woof). Philosophy is doing the exact same thing, its harmonizing reality by taking those material facts of science and weaving them with spiritual religion and ending up with something that is the super additive consequence of both. Mota substance itself is a combination of material and spiritual reality. Mota is superphilosophy, its the same thing as philosophy its just a keener form of philosophy in the next life. Also you can have God-consciousness in a philosophical consciousness. You can also have soul consciousness in a philosophical consciousness.

Also the adjutants work in much the same hierarchal way. The Spirit of Wisdom ministers to the lower ones, including the religious adjutant which is our 6th adjutant.
BonitaParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 7:08 PM

TUB wrote:

We can’t even begin to go anywhere until we view reality.

I prefer to think that is not so much about the mind’s view of reality but rather the degree of personality reality. And personality reality is determined by Deity identification and divinity attainment.

p31:5 1:7.5 Ultimate universe reality cannot be grasped by mathematics, logic, or philosophy, only by personal experience in progressive conformity to the divine will of a personal God.
TUBParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 7:19 PM

19 – (102:2.5) Even the discoveries of science are not truly real in the consciousness of human experience until they are unraveled and correlated, until their relevant facts actually become meaning through encircuitment in the thought streams of mind. Mortal man views even his physical environment from the mind level, from the perspective of its psychological registry. It is not, therefore, strange that man should place a highly unified interpretation upon the universe and then seek to identify this energy unity of his science with the spirit unity of his religious experience. Mind is unity; mortal consciousness lives on the mind level and perceives the universal realities through the eyes of the mind endowment. The mind perspective will not yield the existential unity of the source of reality, the First Source and Center, but it can and sometime will portray to man the experiential synthesis of energy, mind, and spirit in and as the Supreme Being. But mind can never succeed in this unification of the diversity of reality unless such mind is firmly aware of material things, intellectual meanings, and spiritual values; only in the harmony of the triunity of functional reality is there unity, and only in unity is there the personality satisfaction of the realization of cosmic constancy and consistency.

Only in the unity of the harmony of a triune viewpoint is there an opportunity for personality to function. Without that 3-fold harmony set up in our mind we can’t even begin to have personal realization. Its an unbalanced system. In a philosophic/moral consciousness we have a full 3-fold unity perspective. Its not merely philosophical, its not merely religious its not merely scientific. Its all 3 at once. That is what a cosmic consciousness is. We can have a fully fledged religious experienced within a mind that views 3-fold reality, because that religious experience is interfacing with the rest of the reality that we are aware of in our mind. Instead of separating everything into little blocks in our mind, or putting reality into 3 little chunks in our mind, we bring it all together into one 3-fold picture. Where science, philosophy and religion are all 3 folds of the same one reality.

But yes that quote is right we can’t grasp ultimate reality just by looking at philosophy we need the full 3 fold picture. A philosophical consciousness is just a intellectual domain that is co-ordinating 3-fold reality into one holistic whole.
TUBParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 7:31 PM
196:3.2 is saying instead of trying this religious consciousness and getting this….

1.science

2. philosophy

3.truth

4. personality (using a religious consciousness) *truth is missing….

Try this out…..

1.physical reality

2. intellectual reality

3. spiritual reality

4. personality (using a philosophical consciousness) *truth is meant to be here relating to all 3-fold reality not just spiritual reality

^(2094.1) ^196:3.2 There are just three elements in universal reality: fact, idea, and relation. The religious consciousness identifies these realities as science, philosophy, and truth. Philosophy would be inclined to view these activities as reason, wisdom, and faith — physical reality, intellectual reality, and spiritual reality. We are in the habit of designating these realities as thing, meaning, and value.

There is no way you can get a balanced 3-fold triune viewpoint if your viewpoint of 3-fold reality is (science, philosophy, truth). That is a biased viewpoint. Its a viewpoint that is focussing only on truth as it relates to religious reality.
BonitaParticipant
Jul 27, 2014, 11:43 PM
196:3.2 The religious consciousness identifies these realities as science, philosophy, and truth.

The religious consciousness identifies a triune reality: science, philosophy and truth. That’s what I said.

Science is the same thing as: fact, reason, knowledge, thing, matter, physical reality, body.

Philosophy is the same thing as: idea, logic, meaning, wisdom, coordinate consciousness, intellectual reality, mind

Religion is the same thing as: faith, value, relation, truth, spiritual reality, spiritual insight, spirit

It doesn’t matter what you call each part of a triune reality. The various names are given from different levels of viewpoint, but they are all the same thing. The bottom line, though, is expressed in this next quote which states that religion grasps the whole of the entire cosmos and offers this insight to philosophy which attempts to make it jive with physical reality (facts, things, science ). But philosophy fails without revelation. Why is that? Because philosophy, even true philosophy, is still a function of the material mind. Religion involves the soul, a higher reality level.

102:3.10 Science seeks to identify, analyze, and classify the segmented parts of the limitless cosmos. Religion grasps the idea-of-the-whole, the entire cosmos. Philosophy attempts the identification of the material segments of science with the spiritual-insight concept of the whole. Wherein philosophy fails in this attempt, revelation succeeds, affirming that the cosmic circle is universal, eternal, absolute, and infinite.
nelsongParticipant
Jul 28, 2014, 12:36 AM
1107.2) 101:2.12 Revelation as an epochal phenomenon is periodic; as a personal human experience it is continuous.

It is logical (in the philosophical sense) to me that both are happening in my experience with this book.
TUBParticipant
Jul 28, 2014, 1:37 AM

Truth is not meant to relate to just spiritual reality though, and the religious consciousness merely identifies science and philosophy it does not actually view the activities therein. (science, philosophy, truth) is not a triune viewpoint. Its a biased viewpoint. We are supposed see scientific truth, philosophical truth and religious truth. Which is what a philosophical consciousness does, it literally views the activities of physical reality, intellectual reality and spiritual reality as opposed to merely identifying them.

A true philosophical consciousness is like the cosmos. The cosmos are a synthesis of power and the spirit personality of the Supreme. We are conforming our mind to the cosmos hence the term “cosmic consciousness”. We can synthesis our material and spiritual consciousness together into one holistic consciousness.

Also this quote is basically suggesting that revelation is philosophical. By saying that revelation finishes off what philosophy is attempting to do, its basically an omission that it is philosophical. This quote is not saying that philosophy fails to do what revelation does, but “wherein” philosophy fails revelation succeeds. That is like me saying wherein I failed to sweep my floor a vacuum came along and finished the job.

“Wherein philosophy fails in this attempt, revelation succeeds, affirming that the cosmic circle is universal, eternal, absolute, and infinite.”

Also this quote is quite literally saying that revelation is philosophical….

^1105.5) ^101:2.1 The fact of religion consists wholly in the religious experience of rational and average human beings. And this is the only sense in which religion can ever be regarded as scientific or even psychological. The proof that revelation is revelation is this same fact of human experience: the fact that revelation does synthesize the apparently divergent sciences of nature and the theology of religion into a consistent and logical universe philosophy, a co-ordinated and unbroken explanation of both science and religion, thus creating a harmony of mind and satisfaction of spirit which answers in human experience those questionings of the mortal mind which craves to know how the Infinite works out his will and plans in matter, with minds, and on spirit.
BonitaParticipant
Jul 28, 2014, 1:44 AM

TUB wrote:

Its a biased viewpoint

How can God-consciousness be biased? Bias means prejudiced, unfair, one-sided.

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