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How old were you when you discovered the UB?

81 posts · 8 participants · started Dec 8, 2017, 1:16 AM

BonitaParticipant
Dec 11, 2017, 5:25 PM
I’m not sure all doubts arise from the “sophistries of the arch deceiver”. There are such things as “honest doubts”. I certainly have doubts, but never about the existence of God. My doubts are related to my ability to discern his will and trust it. For me, doubt is inversely proportional to trust. I also think trust is proportional to circle mastery.

102:1.1 But honest doubts and sincere questionings are not sin; such attitudes merely spell delay in the progressive journey toward perfection attainment. Childlike trust secures man’s entrance into the kingdom of heavenly ascent, but progress is wholly dependent on the vigorous exercise of the robust and confident faith of the full-grown man.

146:3.4 Spiritual assurance is the equivalent of your personal religious experience in the eternal realities of divine truth and is otherwise equal to your intelligent understanding of truth realities plus your spiritual faith and minus your honest doubts.

12:6.1 The universe is nonstatic. Stability is not the result of inertia but rather the product of balanced energies, co-operative minds, co-ordinated morontias, spirit overcontrol, and personality unification. Stability is wholly and always proportional to divinity.
George ParkParticipant
Dec 11, 2017, 7:48 PM
Bonita wrote:

I’m not sure all doubts arise from the “sophistries of the arch deceiver”. There are such things as “honest doubts”.

I take your point about honest doubts and agree with you completely. But I was referring specifically to real doubts about the very existence of God – entertaining the possible existence of the Void. This idea cannot touch those who have some faith in God, for it appears obviously absurd to them. But for those who are plagued by doubts about God, this idea can be utterly deadly. And we know who first sent this idea to this world and when, and we know the death and destruction it has since caused both here and elsewhere. The perpetrator of this idea no longer has any influence, but this evil idea continues to poison the spirit experience of many. Because of this poison our world “is still under partial spiritual quarantine.” If this quarantine of the rebellious worlds in Satania were to be lifted, “…the Paradise quarantine against all such possible halfhearted or doubt-stricken creatures [would] be extended in self-protection against the entire constellation.” (54:5.10)
BradlyParticipant
Dec 11, 2017, 7:49 PM

chucksmith1982 wrote:

“As for Bradlys’ contention that the theery that the younger generation is not being attracted to the ub is rubbish, I, as one of the younger generation (I’m 35) have to disagree. I’m the youngest currently active member of my small study group. The others (to my knowledge although I may be off by a few years) are of retirement age. At the Urantia gathering I attended in May of this waning year I was the youngest there as well… and there were ub believers there from other states that I’d never met.

……A grim outlook for the Urantia community indeed.”

Greetings Chuck!!

While I cannot offer definitive demographics for any proof of my contention, I again would advise caution related to personal, local, and recent bias when making such sweeping and declarative statements. Studies indicate the youth “problem” is localized in N. America and W. Europe but is not the same in E. Europe, S. America, Asia, etc. I remain confident that all who truly seek T, B, and G will find the UB tremendously helpful in the coming generations and centuries. And those of us who contribute to and support dissemination, translation, and publication in every generation add to the work of planetary epochal progress.

I do find the huge, annual increases in digital downloads and social media participation an indicator of a younger demographic embracing the Revelation. New formats for new preferences based on new capabilities perhaps?

Patience in results and trust in the Most Highs will see progress…in its own time and manner.

Bradly

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BonitaParticipant
Dec 11, 2017, 8:26 PM

George Park wrote:

The perpetrator of this idea no longer has any influence, but this evil idea continues to poison the spirit experience of many. Because of this poison our world “is still under partial spiritual quarantine.” If this quarantine of the rebellious worlds in Satania were to be lifted, “…the Paradise quarantine against all such possible halfhearted or doubt-stricken creatures [would] be extended in self-protection against the entire constellation.” (54:5.10)

This tells me that folks like yourself who have walked to the edge of the void and managed to resist falling in, have a very valuable experience that could possibly help others. What was it about the void that you found unsatisfying. Certainly, if the void gratified you in some way, you would have allowed yourself to be sucked into that black hole. I’d say there’s real substance to your decision against it, substance with great value if you could find a way to share it. I don’t think railing against the existence of the idea of the void and blaming this one or that one for putting it in people’s minds has much value in the long run. Wouldn’t it rather be much more valuable to share the details of your discovery, recognition, interpretation and choice for the anti-void . . . Deity?

Because . . . there is no void . . . it’s not real. It’s just another boogeyman. Folks need to know that!
Van AmadonParticipant
Dec 11, 2017, 10:11 PM
What if you grew up with one of your parents insisting you follow them into the Void?

And although it is overcome by certain experiences personally, you find it impossible to do anything for your siblings who have careened over the cliff following their leader.

The substance of that is very real in my life. Especially understanding how it all works and where it came from.

Fortitude in having stayed on this side of the Void does nothing for those who are lost. In fact, to a certain degree, it has worked only to harden a determination for them to be unwilling to cooperate.

And so it is.
George ParkParticipant
Dec 11, 2017, 10:24 PM
Perhaps I do rail too much against the idea of the void, an absolutely false illusion. But I have discovered nothing new here and am simply retracing an old path. Blaise Pascal openly acknowledged his fear of the void: “The eternal silence of the infinite void terrifies me.” But ever since Frederick Nietzsche looked into this void and dove in, not everyone is so fearful of personality extinction anymore, since many are half convinced there is probably no life after death. I wish I could think of something more to contribute than warnings and criticisms to help.
BradlyParticipant
Dec 11, 2017, 11:07 PM

Van Amadon wrote:

Something tells me most of you were young like I was when you found the book. Do you think it makes a difference?

Hello Enno!!

I don’t know if the age of discovery matters so much as the time-in-the-text. Like Bonita, my first decade or so was pretty on, off, on again. I didn’t meet another reader for most of a decade. When I joined my first study group (Eureka, CA), my studies intensified significantly and for me (and unlike Bonita)immersion in multiple study groups for about 15 years really refocused my entire life to the inner life and my philosophy of living. But now I’ve had 40+ years of study and contemplation and prayer and life adjustment/attunement to verify that philosophy derived thusly….experience has no substitute and wisdom does not come without it….this takes time.

I think the UB will become as common as The Cat In The Hat….eventually. Availability and translations are so much greater today than any time before. As science comes to “discover” the historical record of our world can be confirmed as already told in detail within a text book which predates the science by decades/centuries, additional credibility will come. As the human mind searches for that which harmonizes science and religion, the practical philosophy of unifying harmonization provided by the Revelation will also attract more attention. These are easily discerned within the text by the mind which seeks for them.

I think these potentials reside in every mind which is not closed and gripped by prejudice – and which may prevent a devout religionist or secularist from their discovery regardless of source material…and age. Are older minds more open or more closed than younger minds? An interesting question for which I have no answer…but openness is a prerequisite to discovery no matter one’s experience or age. I am reminded of the inherent ‘yearning’ which the Ta’s bring to each mind….and the whisper of truth to each generation and mind by the Son’s Spirit. I think all hear these voices….but not all respond.

What will it be like in time to come when, instead of tens of thousands of readers and one million books printed/downloaded, there are a few million reader/students and a hundred million books in 20+ languages? For once upon a time there were only 100 readers and 100 books in one language….a mere 60 years ago!!!! Imagine. When I got my book, only 20 years after the first printing, there were few students and a few books and those available from but one source….and every UB was given hand to hand or hand to library or book fair table. Frankly, the sheer size of the UB (before digitization) was too immense for most persons to even begin to approach.

Luckily, when I found the UB (correction – when it found me), I’d already tried and failed for instant-enlightenment and realized this truth seeking business required true dedication and work. But many still search for the finger to the forehead on the misty mountain top and do not seek a lifelong dedication to personal realization and transformation. There are so many pleasures and distractions too available for most of us today.

Perhaps it is that youth bring more dissatisfaction and disappointment to the seeking but maturity brings better priorities and patience to the search? Again…I don’t know. Interesting discussion though.

Also like Bonita….I have been blessed by always believing in God and God’s love and care. And like too few others, I was blessed by spirit led parents and a family tribe that prayed, gave praise, and had faith for many generations. Such makes me very privileged indeed to have enjoyed such stability and example in my formative years. I’ll not rank very high among us Agondonters compared to those who have suffered far more in so many ways in finding the true path to the inner life and Paradise to come.

Something I’ve been thinking about is how brief this life is and how soon suffering will end….only 20-40 years not so long ago and 60-80 now…but as we approach L&L, mortal life grows to centuries of time. I wonder if the times of greatest mortal suffering are blessedly short before our awakening in the heavenly abode brings its rewards throughout the mortal epochs? And if those who discover and embrace truth, beauty, goodness, love, and service in such darkness, confusion, and doubt will not be the most blessed after all? The hammer and the anvil forge steel from coal and iron. The formative experience is hardly welcomed but the result cannot come otherwise….evidently.

Thanks to everyone….a most enjoyable contemplation.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
GeneParticipant
Dec 11, 2017, 11:21 PM
Seems to me that if Nietzsche can describe a void then it cannot be a void – kind of a crazy thought.

A void to me could be analogous to the unqualified absolute – a nicer more comfortable thought.

Think about this one – secular science is expanding their “it” that caused everything with the concept of the “multiverse”
Beyond 13 billion light years there is nothing to see so they ask themselves: what’s beyond the observable universe? How about more universes, even an infinite amount of universes. Still an “it” as the cause but the expanded thinking certainly fills a void eh??

One day the “it” will be a he and the circle will be complete
AndréParticipant
Dec 12, 2017, 4:25 AM
Dears ones,

How interesting those posts in this thread. Feels tinged with unity, maturity.

Entering my 60s, looking back at road that winds overland, I must considered as you said Bradly … The formative experience is hardly welcomed but the result cannot come otherwise….evidently.

Do you think it makes a difference?

Nop VanA. Considering the forces inherent to spiritual ministries [TA/S.Truth … ] so much mores. Any creatures responding at this Divine’s will are welcomed.

What is 81 years old compared to 20s, 30s … in universe probably a nano second. Newbies, on circle of eternity.

^166:3.7 Nevertheless, to all who are honest of heart and sincere in faith, it remains eternally true: “Behold, I stand at the doors of men’s hearts and knock, and if any man will open to me, I will come in …

Knock knock!
BonitaParticipant
Dec 12, 2017, 1:22 PM

George Park wrote:

I wish I could think of something more to contribute than warnings and criticisms to help.

But isn’t that the kind of thing that drives folks away? It won’t work. The only thing that works is living a fruitful life that is so fragrant and beautiful that others begin to think you have something they don’t have, and because it is so attractive, they decide they want to get it. I’m convinced that’s the only way it works. Manipulating the system bruises the fruit.
KerynMember
Dec 12, 2017, 3:08 PM
With regard to young people reading (or not) the TUB, there are some very practical and fundamental issues that come into play for folks in their late 20s, all through their 30s, and into the early 40s, at least here in the United States. It is during those years that most folks are finishing up their education and/or ramping up their careers; starting families; creating a household and finding their ‘place’ in the world. When I look back at those years, there is no way I would have had the time and focus to read a nearly 2,000 page book that requires significant concentration and focus to even understand a single paragraph.

The first time I read the book, I was exhausted after reading only a page or two, and I was in my late 40s. Imagine if I had been in my 30s at a time when my infant children woke me up at all hours of the night and required my full attention all throughout the day. Or in my 20s while juggling a full course load at university plus working part time and trying to have a social life. It has only been in my later middle age that I have the luxury of a well-established career and full-time salary; children grown to an age they can look after themselves; and my household humming along with the routine of many years of working out the details that I can devote the time necessary to fully study TUB and appreciate its complex teachings.
George ParkParticipant
Dec 12, 2017, 7:12 PM

George Park wrote:

I wish I could think of something more to contribute than warnings and criticisms to help.

Bonita wrote:

But isn’t that the kind of thing that drives folks away? It won’t work. The only thing that works is living a fruitful life that is so fragrant and beautiful that others begin to think you have something they don’t have

You are, of course, correct in pointing out the superiority of this way. This sort of Old Testament style of warning about the dire consequences of ignoring or defying God does not often work, particularly today when so many dismiss God as nothing more than an ignorant superstition of primitive minds. And how can I not be rebuked and humbled in my soul “when confronted with the awful spectacle of human limitations”? If I were greater in the kingdom, I would be more effective in revealing the light, but such is not the case. Still, even those who are least in the kingdom have something of value to offer those lost souls who are “wandering about in confusion among the isms and cults of a frustrated philosophic era.”

Before the real emergence of spirit insight, man’s moral self-consciousness can only discern the value of goodness by contrasting it with evil. For those wandering souls who are afflicted with doubts about God, who are spiritually blind to him, the appeal of the infinite goodness of God must be contrasted with something they can grasp. One such thing is the terror of the infinite evil of the “eternal silence of the infinite void.” This Infinite Void does not in fact exist and the presentation of this idea might be considered a misleading deception by those already in the kingdom. But for those not in the kingdom, this idea can provide a way for them to grasp the “infinite evil” of the possibility of eternal personality extinction. This is a hard, very hard truth, which naturally drives away many, if not most. Not even Christianity, with its puerile ideas of hell and eternal damnation, has dared to approach this terrifying truth. How much easier it is to stop up the ears, lest we hear, in the foolish hope of indefinitely postponing the inevitable day of the eternal choice between the Kingdom of light and life and the Void of death and darkness.

And there are more than a few such hard truths in the Book, in addition to the far, far greater abundance of beautiful spiritual appeals. A Solitary Messenger cautions us that the bountifulness of God’s mercy “does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all.” (112:5.9) And consider the dire warning Jesus gives to the multitude in response to a question about whether few or many will be saved.

But herein is the danger to all who would postpone their entrance into the kingdom while they continue to pursue the pleasures of immaturity and indulge the satisfactions of selfishness: Having refused to enter the kingdom as a spiritual experience, they may subsequently seek entrance thereto when the glory of the better way becomes revealed in the age to come. And when, therefore, those who spurned the kingdom when I came in the likeness of humanity seek to find an entrance when it is revealed in the likeness of divinity, then will I say to all such selfish ones: I know not whence you are. You had your chance to prepare for this heavenly citizenship, but you refused all such proffers of mercy; you rejected all invitations to come while the door was open. Now, to you who have refused salvation, the door is shut. (166:3.4)

Some think they have all the time in the world to grapple with vexing spiritual problems, and so, they see no danger in first spending virtually all of their time dealing with more immediately pressing material problems. It seems only fair that Jesus should solemnly warn them of the grave dangers of this presumption. The door of salvation only remains open long enough to give each individual a real and true opportunity to freely choose to enter the kingdom of heaven. When all proffers of mercy have been repeatedly spurned and all spiritual invitations to enter have been finally refused, then the door to salvation is closed.
BonitaParticipant
Dec 12, 2017, 9:26 PM

George Park wrote:

The door of salvation only remains open long enough to give each individual a real and true opportunity to freely choose to enter the kingdom of heaven. When all proffers of mercy have been repeatedly spurned and all spiritual invitations to enter have been finally refused, then the door to salvation is closed.

Yes, but they also tell us that we are given sufficient mercy credits to assure survival. Persons who spurn that amount of mercy must really not want to survive, they must be totally lacking in sincerity and truthfulness, along with a wholehearted desire for self-destruction. If so, God will then give them what they want, no?

(314.4) 28:6.5 2. The Memory of Mercy. These are the actual, full and replete, living records of the mercy which has been extended to individuals and races by the tender ministrations of the instrumentalities of the Infinite Spirit in the mission of adapting the justice of righteousness to the status of the realms, as disclosed by the portrayals of the Significance of Origins. The Memory of Mercy discloses the moral debt of the children of mercy — their spiritual liabilities — to be set down against their assets of the saving provision established by the Sons of God. In revealing the Father’s pre-existent mercy, the Sons of God establish the necessary credit to insure the survival of all. And then, in accordance with the findings of the Significance of Origins, a mercy credit is established for the survival of each rational creature, a credit of lavish proportions and one of sufficient grace to insure the survival of every soul who really desires divine citizenship.

(314.5) 28:6.6 The Memory of Mercy is a living trial balance, a current statement of your account with the supernatural forces of the realms. These are the living records of mercy ministration which are read into the testimony of the courts of Uversa when each individual’s right to unending life comes up for adjudication, when “thrones are cast up and the Ancients of Days are seated. The broadcasts of Uversa issue and come forth from before them; thousands upon thousands minister to them, and ten thousand times ten thousand stand before them. The judgment is set, and the books are opened.” And the books which are opened on such a momentous occasion are the living records of the tertiary seconaphim of the superuniverses. The formal records are on file to corroborate the testimony of the Memories of Mercy if they are required.

(314.6) 28:6.7 The Memory of Mercy must show that the saving credit established by the Sons of God has been fully and faithfully paid out in the loving ministry of the patient personalities of the Third Source and Center. But when mercy is exhausted, when the “memory” thereof testifies to its depletion, then does justice prevail and righteousness decree. For mercy is not to be thrust upon those who despise it; mercy is not a gift to be trampled under foot by the persistent rebels of time. Nevertheless, though mercy is thus precious and dearly bestowed, your individual drawing credits are always far in excess of your ability to exhaust the reserve if you are sincere of purpose and honest of heart.
GeneParticipant
Dec 12, 2017, 10:13 PM
“Yes, but they also tell us that we are given sufficient mercy credits to assure survival. Persons who spurn that amount of mercy must really not want to survive, they must be totally lacking in sincerity and truthfulness, along with a wholehearted desire for self-destruction. If so, God will then give them what they want, no?”

I always thought that self destruction was self inflicted, not God given, that final judgment was simply allowing the inevitable to happen after divine mercy could do no more.
BradlyParticipant
Dec 12, 2017, 10:57 PM
Gene….my understanding is the same. And my understanding is that few, if any, mortals in such a brief life on such a world during such an epochal era can actually ‘achieve’ self erasure. As you suggest, there is no ‘judgement’ day for ascenders but there can come a day when the ascender can indeed ultimately reject love, mercy, and reality itself – but only by a knowing, conscious, and persistent choosing. That is something that seems highly unlikely on this mortal world. None are condemned and none can make such a final and conscious choice due to ignorance, fear, doubt, disbelief even, false beliefs, etc.

We discussed on another topical thread the reality and functionality of faith in pre-TA primitives and children and determined that, according to the teachings, “faith” and its expression does not require specific knowledge or belief…it appears in many forms and flavors, especially related to love of others and self forgetting service to others and deeply held hopes, etc. This is why I immediately felt fully relieved of my church-of-birth duties to ‘save’ others from hell and damnation. Now, also no need to worry overmuch about who survives death and who does not.

155:6.17 (1733.5) Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith. He takes note of the physical and superstitious emotions of the primitive man. And with those honest but fearful souls whose faith is so weak that it amounts to little more than an intellectual conformity to a passive attitude of assent to religions of authority, the Father is ever alert to honor and foster even all such feeble attempts to reach out for him. But you who have been called out of darkness into the light are expected to believe with a whole heart; your faith shall dominate the combined attitudes of body, mind, and spirit.

155:6.18 (1733.6) You are my apostles, and to you religion shall not become a theologic shelter to which you may flee in fear of facing the rugged realities of spiritual progress and idealistic adventure; but rather shall your religion become the fact of real experience which testifies that God has found you, idealized, ennobled, and spiritualized you, and that you have enlisted in the eternal adventure of finding the God who has thus found and sonshipped you.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Van AmadonParticipant
Dec 12, 2017, 11:44 PM
(49:4.9) But mortal mind without immortal spirit cannot survive. The mind of man is mortal; only the bestowed spirit is immortal. Survival is dependent on spiritualization by the ministry of the Adjuster—on the birth and evolution of the immortal soul; at least, there must not have developed an antagonism towards the Adjuster’s mission of effecting the spiritual transformation of the material mind.

Not to belabor who will survive, which isn’t anyone’s business but their own, but I have witnessed this antagonism over and over again with certain people very close to me. Sometimes even with a concluding statement of expressing a desire to not survive and to just want to go to sleep forever when they die.

This always astonishes me but I get a very distinct feeling that many others share this attitude too.

I haven’t given up hope for them and pray for them still, but it seems to me that this antagonism is very deep rooted and is wholehearted.

As I’ve said before, when they’re confronted with someone who is on the other side of this equation, it doesn’t appear to me at all that they want what we have. It’s almost as if they know exactly what it is we have and are very determined to vehemently stand in opposition to it. In fact, I have often wondered if it’s because of seeing this in another, what we possess, that for it’s sake alone, it spurs them on to fervently work to reject it, while they lavishly bask in the accomplishments of their material world.
BradlyParticipant
Dec 13, 2017, 12:13 AM
It has been my experience that that which is opposed and refused and denied and rejected is perceived hypocrisy, evil, and smugness in self claimed religionists and religions. The baby is thrown out with the very dirty bathwater. And the bathwater is indeed filthy in many cases. Perhaps they think heaven is no good place to go based on their life on earth and the hypocritical religionists which stand so proud of their sanctimony and safety as ‘saved’ ones?

This is a principal lesson in the UB…..only the fruits of the spirit reveal one’s success and progress in the Spirit and if those fruits are given in true love and service, then others will be drawn to such a mind, life, and person. Those praying loudly and giving alms in public are enough for any thinking person to reject IMO.

I’m not sure anyone or any of us might truly determine who is rejecting what with any precision nor are we able to measure another’s faith or hope to any degree either. Love rules, love wins….who does not hope for love or give love to another….even on other?

I’m not sure Enno you can factually or objectively state what antagonism to the TA might entail…it’s more than intellectual belief or disbelief to be sure. So some close to you espouse and practice hate? And have no love for any other in any degree or form? Or do they simply have a different perspective and mortal priorities and motives based on the material self and world?

What do you define antagonism toward the TA to be? An interesting concept.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Van AmadonParticipant
Dec 13, 2017, 12:59 AM

Bradly wrote:

What do you define antagonism toward the TA to be?

Well the word is defined in the dictionary as “active hostility or opposition.”

In the context of were the word is used in the UB (Evolutionary Will Creatures, the 4th section of the 49th paper, The Inhabited Worlds) I find it more than somewhat significant that it says that “at least, there must not have developed an antagonism towards the Adjuster’s mission of effecting the spiritual transformation of the material mind” in relation to the potentiality of the survival of evolutionary will creatures.

To define antagonism towards the TA, I think context is the most important factor.

When Jesus lived and loved when he was here, were there any who were antagonistic towards him?
BonitaParticipant
Dec 13, 2017, 12:33 PM

Van Amadon wrote:

As I’ve said before, when they’re confronted with someone who is on the other side of this equation, it doesn’t appear to me at all that they want what we have. It’s almost as if they know exactly what it is we have and are very determined to vehemently stand in opposition to it. In fact, I have often wondered if it’s because of seeing this in another, what we possess, that for it’s sake alone, it spurs them on to fervently work to reject it, while they lavishly bask in the accomplishments of their material world.

No doubt there are folks who see what you have and hate you for it. That’s what killed Jesus, right? But I think he said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (187:2.4)
Van AmadonParticipant
Dec 13, 2017, 2:20 PM

Bonita wrote:

No doubt there are folks who see what you have and hate you for it. That’s what killed Jesus, right? But I think he said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (187:2.4)

Yes, I think you’re right.

But do you also think that those who “nailed him to the crossbeam” were also actively hostile “towards the Adjuster’s mission of effecting the spiritual transformation of [their] material mind?”

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