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Guilt

73 posts · 9 participants · started Feb 15, 2015, 3:33 PM

MaraParticipant
Feb 20, 2015, 6:17 PM

Mark Kurtz wrote: . . . Jesus did not permit himself to be alone for long periods. . . .

193:4:1 It was in the first part of the Master’s farewell message to his apostles that he alluded to the loss of Judas and held up the tragic fate of their traitorous fellow worker as a solemn warning against the dangers of social and fraternal isolation. It may be helpful to believers, in this and in future ages, briefly to review the causes of Judas’s downfall in the light of the Master’s remarks and in view of the accumulated enlightenment of succeeding centuries.

Do you think Judas experienced guilt?
emanny3003Blocked
Feb 20, 2015, 7:03 PM

Bonita wrote:

100:5.8 There is great danger associated with the habitual practice of religious daydreaming; mysticism may become a technique of reality avoidance, albeit it has sometimes been a means of genuine spiritual communion.

Interesting quote and I see where you came up with “reality avoidance”, but consider that “may become” and “technique” and other times a means of genuine spiritual communion.

Two rather opposite outcomes. I do not see shades of gray or degrees of mysticism having such different effects. I would have given this Melchizedek a C- for clarity. You are either real or unreal. I see it as black and white when realities are concerned.

Am I allowed to disagree with a Melchizedek?

I do not think he know us as well as Michael, who walked in our sandals. BTW, this Mel was not Machiventa, I assume.
emanny3003Blocked
Feb 20, 2015, 7:04 PM

Mara wrote:

Do you think Judas experienced guilt?

Yes. To the extreme in the end.
MaraParticipant
Feb 21, 2015, 7:27 PM
What were the causes of Judas’s downfall? 193:4:1
- he was very markedly an isolated personality
- a personality shut in and away from ordinary social contacts
- he persistently refused to confide in, or freely fraternize with, his fellow apostles
- he also failed to increase in love and grow in spiritual grace
- he persistently harbored grudges and fostered such psychologic enemies as revenge and the generalized craving to “get even” with somebody for all his disappointments
- his individual peculiarities and mental tendencies conspired to destroy a well-intentioned man who failed to subdue these evils by love, faith, and trust
- he sought relief for his emotional conflicts in self-expression and he invariably sought the advice and received the unwise consolation of his unspiritual relatives or those chance acquaintances who were either indifferent, or actually hostile, to the welfare and progress of the spiritual realities of the heavenly kingdom
Judas met defeat in his battles of the earth struggle . . . 193:4:4 I am of the opinion that Judas’s choices were of his own doing. They were not a divine doing.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 22, 2015, 3:15 PM
So . . . what’s the connection between isolation and guilt? Are you saying that isolation, being a form of reality avoidance, should engender a feeling of guilt in a “normal” person? I’m afraid that I’m not following the line of thought very well. What am I missing?
MaraParticipant
Feb 22, 2015, 5:35 PM

Bonita wrote: I’m afraid that I’m not following the line of thought very well.

I previously asked whether Judas had guilt. As a followup I thought to put forth some reasons for Judas’s failures leading up to his decision to betray the Master. I thought there might be some clues in there somewhere about guilt. He had plenty of time to formulate his erroneous interpretations. Once a person has his/her mind made up about something, once a decision is made, the person already justifies it in their own mind to the exclusions of, in this case, discussing his ideas with his fellow Apostles. Instead of sticking with his Apostle buddies, he sought council with the wrong crowd. He thought he was right even up to when he went to receive the 30 pieces of silver. He sought revenge. He expected to be eulogized by the Sanhedrin.

They say sin and wrongdoing are adventurous up to a point – when the unromantic facts must be faced.

186:1:6 As Judas left the Sanhedrin chamber, he removed the thirty pieces of silver from the bag and threw them broadcast over the temple floor. When the betrayer left the temple, he was almost beside himself. Judas was now passing through the experience of the realization of the true nature of sin. All the glamor, fascination, and intoxication of wrongdoing had vanished. Now the evildoer stood alone and face to face with the judgment verdict of his disillusioned and disappointed soul. Sin was bewitching and adventurous in the committing, but now must the harvest of the naked and unromantic facts be faced.

Did he experience guilt? Or was he insane?
BradlyParticipant
Feb 22, 2015, 5:38 PM
Yes…what if he had received the honors and position he hoped for?

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AnonymousInactive
Feb 22, 2015, 6:15 PM
Even an executioner follows the will of the administration, and performs his duty, regardless of imposed guilt by its action. It is however, an implied guilt which follows the executioner by their personal association with society. That is why many executioners ware a hood to conceal their person. But it is those who interact with others and also perform their duty, regardless of social opinion, who may suffer, over a period of time, not much different than those soldiers who come home with PTSD, where guilt can become a subconscious affliction to the person. Those who have shown or professed guilt and suffer no shame, cannot feel any emotion associated with their action because it was considered as service and duty, but can suffer internal turmoil with uncertainty and thereby act out again, unknowingly which might be mistaken for insanity.
MaraParticipant
Feb 22, 2015, 7:37 PM

MidiChlorian wrote: . . . implied guilt which follows the executioner by their personal association. . . .

Is this what you are getting at Midi?

89:10:3 The sense or feeling of guilt is the consciousness of the violation of the mores; it is not necessarily sin. There is no real sin in the absence of conscious disloyalty to Deity.

But imagine Adam and Eve!

75:7:2 While downcast by the sense of guilt, Adam and Eve were greatly cheered by the announcement that their judges on Salvington had absolved them from all charges of standing in “contempt of the universe government.” They had not been held guilty of rebellion.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 22, 2015, 7:42 PM

Mara wrote: Did he experience guilt? Or was he insane?

A little of both, I suppose. So what confused me is the relationship between reality avoidance and guilt. I’m guessing that this discussion about Judas is not related then? This is what I asked:

Bonita wrote: Apparently religious daydreaming can be bad for you if it becomes a habit of reality avoidance. So, I’m wondering what are the signs of reality avoidance? Could one of them be a lack of guilt?

Are you saying that Judas suffered from reality avoidance? I know he was an isolated personality, but that’s because he had a base character . . . right?
MaraParticipant
Feb 22, 2015, 8:10 PM

Bonita wrote: So, I’m wondering what are the signs of reality avoidance? Could one of them be a lack of guilt?

In some cases, yes – avoid reality, as Judas seemed to do throughout his experience of living with the Master. He imagined all sorts of things and misinterpreted situations. It horrifies me to try to imagine him, the betrayer.

193:4:9 5. He did not like to face facts frankly; he was dishonest in his attitude toward life situations.

Bonita wrote: Apparently religious daydreaming can be bad for you if it becomes a habit of reality avoidance.

It denotes dishonesty. But then, almost every Apostle imagined himself preferred above the others in the kingdom. That was a kind of daydreaming, a kind of blindness they had about the kindgom. Did they finally get the message when Jesus washed their feet? Did they feel guilty at that time?
BonitaParticipant
Feb 23, 2015, 3:30 PM

Mara wrote: Did they feel guilty at that time?

I’m sure they did. They did a lot of thinking and praying which is how you identify your mistakes and correct them. The apostles met up with a ton of disappointment and dealt with it all. But Jesus didn’t want them to feel guilty; he wanted them to discover, recognize and interpret the problem and then choose the righteous way. If you do that, I think guilt is destroyed and replaced by positive action. Jesus doesn’t want us to wallow in our mistakes but to correct them. I think a certain amount of guilt is necessary to discover and recognize our mistakes, then prayer or meditation helps us find a way to adjust our thoughts to a more virtuous approach to them. If you’re not conscious of having made a mistake, will you look for forgiveness and a way to correct it? That’s why I think that reality avoidance might result in a lack of guilt. I suppose if you’re perfect and don’t make mistakes, then you don’t need guilt. But if you’re perfect, then you wouldn’t be avoiding reality either.
MaraParticipant
Feb 23, 2015, 5:22 PM

Bonita wrote: . . . which is how you identify your mistakes and correct them.

What is a mistake? I think mistakes are relational in the sense that they have to do with one’s relationship with another person. But it might be something very trivial. Might be something you would want to make amends to the person – to apologize. Might be something you made up in your own mind and you are guessing you made a mistake in relation to the other person. I don’t feel guilty about making mistakes, “real” or imagined. I recognize my humanness – my mistake-ability. I am really puzzled about why I do not and have not experienced guilt.

Unworthiness, yes, but not guilt. 89:10:4
MaraParticipant
Feb 23, 2015, 5:33 PM
Regarding Judas, he wanted to escape the guilt of his deed. But, he did say, “I repent that I have done this.”

186:1:4 From a distance Judas saw them raise the cross piece with Jesus nailed thereon, and upon sight of this he rushed back to the temple and, forcing his way past the doorkeeper, found himself standing in the presence of the Sanhedrin, which was still in session. The betrayer was well-nigh breathless and highly distraught, but he managed to stammer out these words: “I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood. You have insulted me. You have offered me as a reward for my service, money — the price of a slave. I repent that I have done this; here is your money. I want to escape the guilt of this deed.”

Do you think he really did repent?
BonitaParticipant
Feb 23, 2015, 5:50 PM

Mara wrote: Do you think he really did repent?

160:1.5 Animals make no inquiry into the purposes of life; therefore they never worry, neither do they commit suicide. Suicide among men testifies that such beings have emerged from the purely animal stage of existence, and to the further fact that the exploratory efforts of such human beings have failed to attain the artistic levels of mortal experience.

I’m guessing that his suicide is evidence of the failure of his effort to reap the benefit of full repentance. He had to give it some thought though, which makes him a moral creature.

Mara wrote:

I am really puzzled about why I do not and have not experienced guilt. Unworthiness, yes, but not guilt.

I don’t see how you can live a moral life without having some level of guilt, without feeling sorry for your own selfish tendencies. Then again, if you don’t have any selfish tendencies, maybe we should erect some kind of shrine? I don’t think there’s a person alive today that doesn’t have an occasional selfish thought. I really can’t imagine how my life would be if when I make a selfish decision I just brushed it off with a “silly me” and go on about my feckless ways. I feel real remorse when I’m selfish, I can’t stand it. I wish those feelings would never come over me and it’s the guilt that keeps them from sticking around very long. Get rid of the selfish thoughts, act on the unselfish ones, and then there’s no guilt to deal with . . . simple formula that works for me. But guilt, a feeling of being out of alignment with reality, is my red flag. It’s a sense of personal wrongness where their should be rightness – the danger zone.
AnonymousInactive
Feb 23, 2015, 7:36 PM

Mara wrote:

MidiChlorian wrote: . . . implied guilt which follows the executioner by their personal association. . . .

Is this what you are getting at Midi?

89:10:3 The sense or feeling of guilt is the consciousness of the violation of the mores; it is not necessarily sin. There is no real sin in the absence of conscious disloyalty to Deity.

Although, your choice of UB quote, could be applied to my posting, however, the key word I used, is “executioner”, which if searched, would reveal the following, which is only one quote which could apply.

(277.2) 25:3.5 The commissioners’ decisions are placed on the planetary records and, if necessary, are put into effect by the divine executioner. His power is very great, and the range of his activities on an inhabited world is very wide. Divine executioners are masterful manipulators of that which is in the interests of that which ought to be. Their work is sometimes carried out for the apparent welfare of the realm, and sometimes their acts on the worlds of time and space are difficult of explanation. Though executing decrees in defiance of neither natural law nor the ordained usages of the realm, they do ofttimes effect their strange doings and enforce the mandates of the conciliators in accordance with the higher laws of the system administration.
AnonymousInactive
Feb 23, 2015, 7:50 PM

Mara wrote:

Regarding Judas, he wanted to escape the guilt of his deed. But, he did say, “I repent that I have done this.”

Yes, but what was his act of repentance? Was it “guilt”, or was it a form of unconscious duty, based on his personal understanding of loyalty? If loyalty, to whom, as he might have thought at that time?
MaraParticipant
Feb 24, 2015, 2:26 AM

Bonita wrote: I don’t see how you can live a moral life without having some level of guilt, without feeling sorry for your own selfish tendencies.

I don’t feel sorry for my selfish tendencies. I don’t feel remorse for it, and I don’t have any guilt about it. It must be that I do not understand what guilt is. I accept the fact that I have a few quirks and some rough edges. Nothing to feel guilty about. I have always been fellow-creature minded and service-oriented.

I do recall a time in my life when I worried about doing wrong (what I imagined might be a wrong thing to do). Then I discovered this affirmation – the last line of a larger paragraph:

140:4:6The happy and effective person is motivated, not by fear of wrongdoing, but by love of right doing.
MaraParticipant
Feb 24, 2015, 3:03 AM

MidiChlorian wrote: . . . the key word I used, is “executioner”. . . . [25:3:5]

Yes, I noticed your reference to executioner in your first post. The acts of those who have this assignment are part of the universe justice system. They execute decisions of the courts, the mandates of the conciliating commissions. They were designed to function as executioners. You can read more about them here: 37:8:6
BonitaParticipant
Feb 24, 2015, 2:24 PM
Guilt is a function of conscience; guilt is defined as consciousness of interrupted spiritual communion, or consciousness of lowering of one’s moral ideals (103:4.3). Conscience is a function of mind which delineates between right and wrong on a human level. Guilt is the feeling that the conscience provides to indicate to us that something wrong has been thought or done. Guilt is a result of a failure in resolving issues of right and wrong. The two go together: conscience and guilt. A person without guilt is a person without a conscience, and a person without a conscience is called a psychopath.

I think it’s important to stress that guilt is not synonymous with punishment. Guilt is simply a feeling of wrongdoing or wrong thinking, both of which interrupt spiritual communion and fall short of one’s moral ideals. It’s a feeling of moving in the wrong direction. Responding to that feeling and choosing to correct it is all it takes to erase guilt for that particular episode. But to erase all guilt forever is just not possible unless one is perfect in every way and never makes any mistakes in thought, word or deed. I don’t know any human being alive that fits into that category.

When Jesus said the following:

156:2.7 “My disciples must not only cease to do evil but learn to do well; you must not only be cleansed from all conscious sin, but you must refuse to harbor even the feelings of guilt. If you confess your sins, they are forgiven; therefore must you maintain a conscience void of offense.”

He instructed us not to harbor feelings of guilt. He did not say to never, ever have guilt. To harbor guilt means to hold onto one’s mistakes secretly, to bring the guilt ship into port and shelter the negativity in your mind so it eats away at you as a form of punishment. He is saying that he does not want us to become overly self-critical but to forgive ourselves; or rather, allow God to forgive us and get on with it. The important part of the quote is to maintain a “conscience void of offense,” which means to recognize and correct wrong doing and wrong thinking in order to maintain uninterrupted spiritual communion, knowing that God only requires a resumption of loyal relations with him without punishment by him or yourself.

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