Guilt

73 posts · 9 participants · started Feb 15, 2015, 3:33 PM

1. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Feb 15, 2015, 3:33 PM

   Guilt is defined as consciousness of violation of the customs of morality. (89:10.3).  Recognition of this consciousness is a mark of transcendent distinction because it has the potential to create a sense of unworthiness. (89:10.4)  It is this sense of unworthiness that leads to humility, openness and willingness to be led.

   But guilt can go terribly wrong.  We know that some individuals can be absolutely paralyzed by guilt, and unable to function properly.  Then there are some who use guilt as a weapon to gain power over others with sob stories of victimhood and other manipulations designed to instill shame and garner enablement.

   I would say that a healthy, balanced amount of guilt creates good soil for seed sowing.  An imbalanced  guilty conscience leads to all sorts of misery, not only for the owner of such a conscience, but for others as well.  Whatever plagues the conscience, if not handled appropriately, results in all manner of human unhappiness.

   103:2.10 A misguided conscience can become responsible for much conflict, worry, sorrow, and no end of human unhappiness.

2. MK

   Mark KurtzParticipant
   Feb 15, 2015, 3:49 PM

   Yes, Bonita.  And Jesus affirmed we should not let guilt drive our lives:

   156:2.7 “Said Jesus: “My disciples must not only cease to do evil but learn to do well; you must not only be cleansed from all conscious sin, but you must refuse to harbor even the feelings of guilt. If you confess your sins, they are forgiven; therefore must you maintain a conscience void of offense.”

   There is a lot more to post.  A word search on guilt is revealing.

   Thank you.

3. N

   nelsongParticipant
   Feb 15, 2015, 4:07 PM

   If you confess your sins, they are forgiven; therefore must you maintain a conscience void of offense.”

   good luck

4. M

   MaraParticipant
   Feb 15, 2015, 4:26 PM

   nelsong wrote:

   If you confess your sins, they are forgiven; therefore must you maintain a conscience void of offense.” good luck

   Take heart nelsong.

   156:5:8   Do not become discouraged by the discovery that you are human. Human nature may tend toward evil, but it is not inherently sinful. Be not downcast by your failure wholly to forget some of your regrettable experiences. The mistakes which you fail to forget in time will be forgotten in eternity. Lighten your burdens of soul by speedily acquiring a long-distance view of your destiny, a universe expansion of your career.
5. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Feb 15, 2015, 5:09 PM

   Guilt is useful though.  Even Adam and Eve experienced guilt. And they were much comforted when absolved by their judges.

   75:7.2 While downcast by the sense of guilt, Adam and Eve were greatly cheered by the announcement that their judges on Salvington had absolved them from all charges of standing in “contempt of the universe government.” They had not been held guilty of rebellion.

6. E

   emanny3003Blocked
   Feb 15, 2015, 11:27 PM

   Bonita wrote:

   Guilt is useful though.  Even Adam and Eve experienced guilt. And they were much comforted when absolved by their judges.

   Where exactly is the usefulness of guilt? Guilt is a poison. Who are you prescribing it to? This is outrageous.

7. B

   BradlyParticipant
   Feb 16, 2015, 12:39 AM
   Bonita wrote:

   Guilt is defined as consciousness of violation of the customs of morality. (89:10.3). Recognition of this consciousness is a mark of transcendent distinction because it has the potential to create a sense of unworthiness. (89:10.4) It is this sense of unworthiness that leads to humility, openness and willingness to be led. But guilt can go terribly wrong. We know that some individuals can be absolutely paralyzed by guilt, and unable to function properly. Then there are some who use guilt as a weapon to gain power over others with sob stories of victimhood and other manipulations designed to instill shame and garner enablement. I would say that a healthy, balanced amount of guilt creates good soil for seed sowing. An imbalanced guilty conscience leads to all sorts of misery, not only for the owner of such a conscience, but for others as well. Whatever plagues the conscience, if not handled appropriately, results in all manner of human unhappiness.

   103:2.10 A misguided conscience can become responsible for much conflict, worry, sorrow, and no end of human unhappiness.

   Thank you Bonita for your balanced and thoughtful presentation.  The UB, especially Jesus himself, teaches us so many “balancing acts” of how a little of this and that is helpful but too much turns a positive potential into a negative.  There are so many examples of this.  Guilt may be nothing more than realization and recognition leading to acknowledgement and change or it can become a festering source of regret and disabling self blame.  I think guilt is most often “abused” by those who have made no change to bad priorities and choices which keep bringing the same result.  For some, such guilt seeks a source of blame and resentment as its eventual “treatment”.  Maturity and balance are what makes one thing good for some and the same not so good for others who do not accept responsibility for their own choices and actions and feel helpless in their self victimization.  Thanks Bonita…as always, clear thinking on a difficult issue.

   

    

   "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

8. N

   nelsongParticipant
   Feb 16, 2015, 1:08 AM

   Guilt and sin are not necessarily connected

   if you don’t want it to burry you you do something about it

   its a motivator

   its also a reflection on your own morality

   I don’t see how you can say it is not useful

9. M

   MaraParticipant
   Feb 16, 2015, 1:37 AM

   Guilt is not innate is it? I do not experience guilt.  Must be something wrong with me.  I think most all religions tell their people things to make them fearful and guilty.  Some religions more than others.  I think parental influences do a guilt number on kids too.  Should I feel guilty I don’t have guilt? 

10. N

    nelsongParticipant
    Feb 16, 2015, 4:28 AM

    I think I’m the one with something wrong.

    i will say this: I have never been connected with any religion. Raised a Mormon but it never connected.

     

     

11. E

    emanny3003Blocked
    Feb 16, 2015, 12:00 PM

    nelsong wrote:

    I don’t see how you can say it is not useful

    156:2.7 “Said Jesus: “My disciples must not only cease to do evil but learn to do well; you must not only be cleansed from all conscious sin, but you must refuse to harbor even the feelings of guilt. If you confess your sins, they are forgiven; therefore must you maintain a conscience void of offense.”

    Guilt is useful, but only to be offensive.

12. N

    nelsongParticipant
    Feb 16, 2015, 12:14 PM

    Jesus formula is wonderful for guilt that is associated with sin.

     

13. E

    emanny3003Blocked
    Feb 16, 2015, 12:44 PM

    nelsong wrote:

    Jesus formula is wonderful for guilt that is associated with sin.

    Yes, because of the unreality of sin is more easily erased and play no part in retarding soul progression.

14. B

    BradlyParticipant
    Feb 16, 2015, 1:47 PM
    Mara wrote:

    . Should I feel guilty I don’t have guilt?

     

    Where’s the laugh out loud face?  Hahahahaha.  Very funny.  I think guilt has it greatest value for change in those who are earlier in their spirit “career” perhaps.  That value is specific to its ability to change someone and redirect motives, intentions, priorities, choices.  Without guilt as a motive for change, there is no value to find therein.  As spirit progress is made and the fruits appear, perhaps the more mature religionist has less and less for which guilt may be associated?  Guilt is a measure of and a response to a lack of sincerity and effort in love and service as in being cruel, indifferent, self centered, and disloyal but awareness of those transgressions demonstrates also awareness of a personal violation of truth, beauty, goodness, and love…..or it is simply the feeling a moral or ethical person might have for the transgression of only social taboo or for the priest-led, perhaps a general sense of guilt and responsibility for all sin everywhere since the beginning of time.

    In this way, the functionality of guilt is magnified or muted based on the one who experiences it….what is the personal “response” to this feeling?  Is it a lever for discernment and change?  For if that, then would not more experience and maturity and circle progress naturally lead one to fewer and fewer “opportunities” for this feeling?  Or is guilt but a source of self torture or finding blame and fuel for self pity, a  pit that mires one into immobility and self loathing?

    Of course, there are those without guilt due to ego and self righteousness too.  Thanks for the levity Mara.  We surely need it.

    

     

     

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

15. B

    BonitaParticipant
    Feb 16, 2015, 2:54 PM

    According to the following quote, the only way to completely avoid any feelings of guilt would be to maintain a level of unbroken communication with God and to never lower your moral ideals.  I do think this is possible in this world, but I also think that we can delude ourselves into thinking that we’ve attained such a high level of existence.  (Not speaking to you directly Mara; I believe that you are quite capable of attaining that level.)

    103:4.3 The sense of guilt (not the consciousness of sin) comes either from interrupted spiritual communion or from the lowering of one’s moral ideals. Deliverance from such a predicament can only come through the realization that one’s highest moral ideals are not necessarily synonymous with the will of God. Man cannot hope to live up to his highest ideals, but he can be true to his purpose of finding God and becoming more and more like him.

    Self-delusion which results in a complete lack of guilt might easily be caused by spiritual pride, or unbridled egotism, a total lack of the ability to assume responsibility for one’s thoughts and actions. Someone like that would have no conscience and therefore no guilt.

    And this, I think, is at the heart of the quote about the fringe of conflict on page 1766.  Guilt causes mental conflict, an inner war between the two realms of existence, material and spiritual.  If you live entirely in the spiritual realm, you have no conflict, no guilt.  That is why Jesus told his apostles that they should not have guilt; he wanted them to strive to attain a spiritual level of existence and avoid the fringe of mental conflict that comes from trying to serve two masters.

    But to an individual who is entirely self-centered, this fringe of conflict will not exist either.  Such a person would be quite content with themselves and their selfish little world.  No guilt there.  And I think the lack of guilt brings comfort to these people.  The conflict that comes from facing the world of reality is too much for them to handle, being of weak minds and spirits.

16. E

    emanny3003Blocked
    Feb 17, 2015, 12:52 AM

    Bradly wrote:

    Of course, there are those without guilt due to ego and self righteousness too.  Thanks for the levity Mara.  We surely need it.

    Jesus was guiltless. To what do you aspire?

    Bonita wrote:

    Self-delusion which results in a complete lack of guilt might easily be caused by spiritual pride, or unbridled egotism, a total lack of the ability to assume responsibility for one’s thoughts and actions. Someone like that would have no conscience and therefore no guilt.

    Jesus felt no guilt and never apologized to anyone. Did he take responsibility? Was he without a conscience?

17. N

    nelsongParticipant
    Feb 17, 2015, 1:12 AM

    Am I on the wrong planet or what?

    Has anybody zigged when they should have zagged, hesitated to act when action was required, helped the wrong person, made the wrong decision – and by any or all of these, really hurt some people, some may have even suffered unnecessarily and or lost their lives.

    None of the above are sinful but all have guilt associated. None of the above require repentance but there was certainly a bunch regardless. I feel like the general consensus is that guilt and sin are like hand in glove. Not the case in my experience.

    Jesus never got into this kind of stuff because he was very wise, neither do most avid religionists, wise or other-wise. I can understand this.

    Jesus did mention however that if required he would defend himself. It never came to that but it was possible. There would have been no sin, no need for repentance and a wise human being like Jesus would have felt no guilt I suppose if he had to hurt someone. Or if guilt came up, he would have willed it away just because he is a God-Man and has that kind of power/strength.

18. E

    emanny3003Blocked
    Feb 17, 2015, 1:26 AM

    I agree, nelsong. No quotes need follow. I simply agree.

19. N

    nelsongParticipant
    Feb 17, 2015, 2:10 PM

    emanny3003 wrote:

    I agree, nelsong. No quotes need follow. I simply agree.

    you agree because it sounds like I’m critical of someone??? Or?

20. K

    KerynMember
    Feb 17, 2015, 2:49 PM

    nelsong wrote:

    None of the above are sinful but all have guilt associated. None of the above require repentance but there was certainly a bunch regardless. I feel like the general consensus is that guilt and sin are like hand in glove. Not the case in my experience.

    There is a fine line between guilt and regret.  When I shared the anecdote about the woman who inadvertently left her child in the car on a hot day, I did not meant to imply that she had committed a sin.  However, I have no doubt that she felt an extreme sense of guilt/regret. I think ‘regret’ is probably the more accurate word for this type of emotion, but our culture has used the term ‘guilt’ interchangably with the feeling of regret.

    Has anybody zigged when they should have zagged, hesitated to act when action was required, helped the wrong person, made the wrong decision – and by any or all of these, really hurt some people, some may have even suffered unnecessarily and or lost their lives.

    Yes, I have done these things, and they may not have been sins (as they were not a conscious disloyalty to Father but mistakes of my own stupidity, immaturity or carelessness) I most definitely felt regret about them afterward.

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