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advice for an ub believer and a nonbeliever couple

45 posts · 11 participants · started Dec 14, 2017, 7:39 AM

Van AmadonParticipant
Dec 17, 2017, 5:49 PM

Bonita wrote:

Bradly wrote:

Tenets are beliefs that are shared in common, right?

Do you mean shared in common by all religionists? If so, then no. The definition mentions nothing of universality. A tenet concerns the beliefs of all members of a single religion, philosophy or organization. Definition of tenet. : a principle, belief, or doctrine generally held to be true; especially: one held in common by members of an organization, movement, or profession. For instance, one of the tenets of the Catholic Church is that Jesus is the only son of God. Another one states that he was born of the Holy Ghost by the Virgin Mary. Another tenet is that Jesus descended into hell after death and rose the third day. These mythological tenets are huge stumbling blocks for many religionists, for those who believe them and for those who don’t. But I can agree that Jesus is a son of God, just not the only one, and that he was incarnated into flesh by being born of a woman. I can also agree that he rose on the third day, but there’s no way I could ever agree that Jesus descended into hell. That’s where I draw the line. I have to tell people, no matter how offended they become, that hell does not exist. I also can’t allow anyone to tell me that he died for my sins. I’ll say, “Maybe for yours.” I won’t bring these two sticking points up, but if someone else does, then Houston, we have a problem.

Lol.

I’m in that boat with you, with God
BonitaParticipant
Dec 17, 2017, 7:01 PM

Gene wrote:

I did have one breakthrough however when I pointed out how the biblical concept of the God of the Saini that took brutal revenge on non believers got an upgrade in the NT to a God of love and mercy. We agreed that progress happens in our religious experience.

Hooray for logic and reason. It comes in handy sometimes.

101:1.1 True religion is not a system of philosophic belief which can be reasoned out and substantiated by natural proofs, neither is it a fantastic and mystic experience of indescribable feelings of ecstasy which can be enjoyed only by the romantic devotees of mysticism. Religion is not the product of reason, but viewed from within, it is altogether reasonable. Religion is not derived from the logic of human philosophy, but as a mortal experience it is altogether logical. Religion is the experiencing of divinity in the consciousness of a moral being of evolutionary origin; it represents true experience with eternal realities in time, the realization of spiritual satisfactions while yet in the flesh.
chucksmith1982Participant
Dec 17, 2017, 11:28 PM
Bonita, I see your point about comprimise. However there are some things on wich I am not willing to comprimise. Being able to freely practice and express my faith within a relationship is one of them. If my partner is not willing to allow me to do that then it won’t work out. The same is true for me. If I do not allow my partner to give voice/expression to her faith then it won’t work out.

As for the tennants, I explained that we both believe in one God. I also explained the differences between Christianity and the ub. Examples that I gave her include the atonement doctrine. We haven’t really discussed the ub in any great detail. I’ve only pointed out some of the similarities and differences within the two faiths.

Nigel, thanks for the encouragement. It means a lot. Same to you Bonita. Bradly as well.

Bonita I think Bradly was talking strictly about Christianity and the ub.

Gene, That is my point. The Ub and Christianity, for lack of a better way to phrase it, you and your sons’ religions, are proving to be a stumbling block to your relationship. While you can discuss your differences neither one of you, I ask pardon if I am wrong here, are willing to conseed that the other might be right. Your son is being the typical Christian with the oppinion that he’s right and everyone else is wrong. That is typical of most conservitive Christians.

That is my problem as well. While my lady has respect for my religious choice she is willing to go no farther than that.
GeneParticipant
Dec 18, 2017, 2:14 AM
Religious differences between me and my son do not interfere with our relationship. It’s good to have differences.
Remember that God is no respecter of persons, he loved the savage that worshiped him thinking he was fire.
In regard to being right-both of us are right. Think about it : all religious beliefs are relative and partial and incomplete. Believing in God is more important than not.
We will not be in the presence of God the father for a very long time and in the process of getting there our understanding of him and relationship with him will most certainly evolve and current beliefs will give way to new.
chucksmith1982Participant
Dec 18, 2017, 10:19 AM
Appoligies Gene. Your point is well taken.
BonitaParticipant
Dec 18, 2017, 10:41 AM

chucksmith1982 wrote:

Bonita, I see your point about comprimise.

Did I mention compromise? I don’t recall. What I said, I think, is that relationships are more important than churches and books. Love is the only thing that matters. If you love institutions, ideologies and things more than you love an intimate friend and partner, then there’s a problem. I’m pretty sure that’s what I said. But I agree, this applies to both sides of the relationship.
Nigel NunnParticipant
Dec 19, 2017, 4:48 PM
Gene wrote:

“I did have one breakthrough however when I pointed out how the biblical concept of the God of the [Sinai] that took brutal revenge on non believers got an upgrade in the NT to a God of love and mercy.

We agreed that progress happens in our religious experience.
It’s a start.

And a good start, too! Now, a next step you and Chuck might both take is to ask about the religious life of Jesus himself, before there was a system of faith called Christianity. I once asked a pair of fresh young Anglican ministers about this; they looked at each other, realizing that they’d never really thought about that, the most important fact in the foundation of their own strong faith.

Nigel
GeneParticipant
Dec 19, 2017, 5:22 PM

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Gene wrote:

“I did have one breakthrough however when I pointed out how the biblical concept of the God of the [Sinai] that took brutal revenge on non believers got an upgrade in the NT to a God of love and mercy.

We agreed that progress happens in our religious experience.
It’s a start.

And a good start, too! Now, a next step you and Chuck might both take is to ask about the religious life of Jesus himself, before there was a system of faith called Christianity. I once asked a pair of fresh young Anglican ministers about this; they looked at each other, realizing that they’d never really thought about that, the most important fact in the foundation of their own strong faith.

Nigel

Good one, I have not thought about that either but it is now on my to-do list.
Possibly a new thread on similar thought provoking ideas for potential UB students is in order?

I know that there have been past attempts: I have a paper written by Meredith Springer titled “ an intro to TUB for conservative Christians” but because of the way the atonement doctrine was presented it was soundly rejected.
ColeParticipant
Dec 19, 2017, 6:17 PM
Like most, my spouse comes from a different perspective. She is Catholic. She once picked up the UB. I suggested that she start with the Jesus papers. At the first point of divergence from Catholic doctrine (Mary had more than one child)….she quit reading. Catholicism preaches that the brothers/sisters of Jesus were actually cousins (an error due to an interpretation error of common words of the day). This split in a marriage is tough in many ways….my parents were also separated by beliefs: Baptist vs. Lutheranism. I have tried to rise above all of the differences and have, mostly in the past, looked into most current religions. My approach over the past many years is to try to connect on common ground with all that I meet….and as Jesus did, find and re-inforce the positives in others’ beliefs.

Somewhat related to the posts immediately above is the question of paganism within Christianity. The UB tells us repeatedly that Christianity is “weakened” by such (my words, paraphrase). I was recently talking with a Christian and this subject came up. He recommended that I read a book from 2008 by Frank Viola entitled “Pagan Christianity”. I have not purchased it yet but it looks interesting. It was interesting to see that one of the reviewers, a prof from Asbury mentioned that Paganism leads to impotency in the Christian church. I think most Christians are not aware of Paganism within the church as a whole. When I mentioned such to a younger, very close relative (Catholic) in the midst of a discussion…her eyes got wide and she indicated, “I never had thought of that!” I think now she will.
GeneParticipant
Dec 19, 2017, 7:14 PM
There is another interesting part of the revelation that comes to mind and it was when Jesus and Ganid were studying the religions of the world in Alexandria.
Ganid had an eye-opener when he discovered that the vast majority of religions, regardless of divergent beliefs, believed on “one God”.
This is something any religious student can do today in the living room behind a lap top.
Discovering what different religions have in common is much more rewarding than dwelling on their differences.
BonitaParticipant
Dec 19, 2017, 9:18 PM

Cole wrote:

. . . .her eyes got wide and she indicated, “I never had thought of that!

That’s what I’ve been saying. So few real thinkers and so many trapped in cultural bondage. I’ll bet you aroused her divine emotions, which is what opens up the gateway. Those little eye-openers can let in a lot of light!

152:6.4 Jesus taught the appeal to the emotions as the technique of arresting and focusing the intellectual attention. He designated the mind thus aroused and quickened as the gateway to the soul, where there resides that spiritual nature of man which must recognize truth and respond to the spiritual appeal of the gospel in order to afford the permanent results of true character transformations.
ColeParticipant
Dec 19, 2017, 10:47 PM
Bonita wrote: He designated the mind thus aroused and quickened as the gateway to the soul, where there resides that spiritual nature of man which must recognize truth and respond…

That is a good reference for this discussion. Appeal to the soul through the mind, the soul….and eventually, the TA…with truth. And as it says….the TA MUST respond.

And you mention those trapped in cultural bondage. That is an apt description but most do not even realize their entrapment. I sat in my spouse’s church recently watching a long line of people drink from the cup after being told, “(drink this), the blood of Christ.” My mind wandered off and I was thinking….how long will this pagan distortion last? Quite long, I think….but it WILL go away eventually – the true Gospel will prevail. The sad thing is…all of this is a roadblock for many that are leary of Christianity, other religions, and even God…and thus….we see our society/world becoming much more secular and materialistic, at least in the short run…which is probably the next many, many decades.
BonitaParticipant
Dec 20, 2017, 1:08 AM

Cole wrote:

I sat in my spouse’s church recently watching a long line of people drink from the cup after being told, “(drink this), the blood of Christ.” My mind wandered off and I was thinking….how long will this pagan distortion last?

I agree, the belief in transubstantiation is a bunch of hocus-pocus hooey, but there is some value in the ritual regardless of all the magic and mystery surrounding it, because Jesus actually does show up! All it takes is a little spirit consciousness to recognize him. I’ve experienced this myself, so I know it’s true.

(1942.5) 179:5.6 This supper of remembrance, when it is partaken of by those who are Son-believing and God-knowing, does not need to have associated with its symbolism any of man’s puerile misinterpretations regarding the meaning of the divine presence, for upon all such occasions the Master is really present. The remembrance supper is the believer’s symbolic rendezvous with Michael. When you become thus spirit-conscious, the Son is actually present, and his spirit fraternizes with the indwelling fragment of his Father.
chucksmith1982Participant
Dec 20, 2017, 4:49 AM
Bonita, while I agree with you, there are people who will give up a relationship because of faith/belief. If you do not share their same belief system then you are not, to them, relationship material.

I may be going through a talk with my ladys’ mom in wich I will have to tell her that, even though I go to a Christian church, no, I am not a Christian. My lady listens to her mother a great deal. So, if, even though her and I have already discussed the matter, if Mom suggests to her that, because of religious differences, we would not be a good match, there goes the relationship.

Remember, I am from the south. The bible belt to be exact. Alabama to be more particular. Anything that is not fundamentalist Christian down here is considered a false, and therefore, not legitimate religion. That’s just the way it is down here. If you are not ultra conservitive fundamentalist Christian you are going to Hell.

I showed her Mom the ub and she said that it was one man’s oppinion after he disagreed with the Bible. I’m not sure how long she read it as I just gave her the Foundations’ website. She said that sense the UB wasn’t a religion that she felt aukward reading it. She asked me not to get her daughter involved with it. Her daughter has no interest in it, so that won’t be a problem. We were not able to talk further but I sence that more conversations are comeing.

Nigel, thanks for the idea!

Cole, that’s what I am afraid will happen here. When I start to explain the differences I’ll be shut out of the relationship either by my lady or my ladys’ mom. That is how important religion is to them. And I understand that that didn’t happen between you and your wife. How did you overcome the difference? How did she? Do you discuss your mutual differences or just let it lie? Do you partisapate in each others’ religious practices? EX. Church for you, UB related activities for her? If not what do you two do while the other (on both sides of the couple) are engaged in your varrious religious practices? EX. What does she do while you are in UB study group? What do you do while she is in church?

Gene, while I agree with you, the problem, as I stated above in this response to multiple authors’ posts, is that I am from the south. Most people down here won’t look into anything that is not their particular brand of Christianity. I fear that the mother, who has a large influence on the daughter, is such a one. I also fear that my lady, aka the daughter, is the same.

Bonita, I deffanatly agree with you about the cultural bondage part!

Cole, I agree with you on that. People do not see the forest for the trees. And I also agree with you on the rest of your post.

Bonita, be careful about insulting the core beliefs of another religion. The way that you phrased that could turn away a truth seeker from said religion.
BonitaParticipant
Dec 22, 2017, 8:43 PM

chucksmith1982 wrote:

Bonita, be careful about insulting the core beliefs of another religion. The way that you phrased that could turn away a truth seeker from said religion.

The way I phrased what?

If a person gets offended by truth, then he/she is not a sincere truth-seeker. A sincere truth-seeker will recognize truth regardless of the form it is presented. Jesus did not concern himself with correcting misunderstandings of the truth he taught.

155:6.12 You must cease to seek for the word of God only on the pages of the olden records of theologic authority. Those who are born of the spirit of God shall henceforth discern the word of God regardless of whence it appears to take origin. Divine truth must not be discounted because the channel of its bestowal is apparently human.

141:7.12 He paid no attention to public opinion, and he was uninfluenced by praise. He seldom paused to correct misunderstandings or to resent misrepresentation. He never asked any man for advice; he never made requests for prayers.

143:1.4 I have come into this world to do the will of my Father and to reveal his loving character to all mankind. That, my brethren, is my mission. And this one thing I will do, regardless of the misunderstanding of my teachings by Jews or gentiles of this day or of another generation.
AndréParticipant
Dec 23, 2017, 4:14 AM

I think Chucks refered to those …

132:0.4 … And this was his method of instruction: Never once did he attack their errors or even mention the flaws in their teachings. In each case he would select the truth in what they taught and then proceed so to embellish and illuminate this truth in their minds that in a very short time this enhancement of the truth effectively crowded out the associated error; .

… but there is some value in the ritual regardless of all the magic and mystery surrounding it, because Jesus actually does show up!

Up here is a good way to phrased it .

Down here, must be carefull addressed.

If a person gets offended by truth, then he/she is not a sincere truth-seeker.

Jesus did not concern himself with correcting misunderstandings of the truth he taught.

… that is why He choose carefully truths whom won’t put his listeners on defensive and succeed to slip in an unprovacative one.

… and as you quoted , sometimes He got right with truths whom will offended listeners.

Generally all humans in 7 Universes are recipients with huge potentials awaiting the spirited works of spiritual ministeries.

Love inspired us to behave kindly towards those soon to be sincere truth-seeker. Because they are beloved by their Father
BonitaParticipant
Dec 23, 2017, 1:02 PM

andré wrote:

that is why He choose carefully truths whom won’t put his listeners on defensive and succeed to slip in an unprovacative one.

I think most of the Sadducees and Pharisees were constantly put on the defensive by what Jesus said. They were always provoked by his words because they were not really truth-seekers. Some of Jesus’ parables confused and perplexed his own apostles, so much that they even got to arguing over them. Jesus was never superficially frothy in his teaching so as not to offend people. He spoke truth and whole sections of society were offended by what he said; but that was their problem, not his.

So, I don’t really care how offended people get when I say I don’t believe in hell or that Jesus died for my sins. That’s what I believe and if folks are offended by my beliefs, that’s their problem, not mine. I’m not asking them to change theirs, just stating mine, which I’m entitled to have. Things would be entirely different if a person came to me sincerely asking if hell exists. If I respond to that sincere question with truth, I doubt the questioner would be offended by my explanation of why hell can’t exist, and that’s because the mind would be open to an answer; the mind would be willing to consider alternatives. That’s a truth-seeker.

andré wrote:

Love inspired us to behave kindly towards those soon to be sincere truth-seeker. Because they are beloved by their Father

Yes, but don’t forget that the Father’s love is sometimes seen by us as tough love, especially when we’re not focused on truth.

2:5.3 The Creators are the very first to attempt to save man from the disastrous results of his foolish transgression of the divine laws. God’s love is by nature a fatherly affection; therefore does he sometimes “chasten us for our own profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness.” Even during your fiery trials remember that “in all our afflictions he is afflicted with us.”

188:4.10 True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes.
Mark606Participant
Jan 1, 2018, 2:28 AM
Chuck,

Your problem is difficult but not isolated. I’ve only met a few couples who both believe the book, whereas others seem to worked it out, as the comments here suggest. While it seems to me that Jesus would not want us to compromise our spiritual ideals, all else is pretty much fair game. I’m certainly no expert on the topic and any relationship advice is always a bit of a hot potato.

Nevertheless, I would just like to say that I have two adult children who were both brought up with the UB teachings and yet neither of them read the book. But I do know, as the book has taught me, that they are greatly influenced by my example as well as by my loyalty to all things spiritual.
Mark606Participant
Jan 1, 2018, 5:37 PM
On reflection, I thought I could add something else that is perhaps a little more relevant to your question. Some years ago, I met an attractive lady at a UB conference. We were instantly drawn to each other and soon struck up a romantic relationship. At one point, I even held the rather naïve notion that our meeting was supremely ordained. But less than two years later it proved to be a supreme disaster.

I can, therefore, attest first-hand that having the same beliefs is no guarantee for a successful relationship. But in retrospect, I must also admit that, at the time, neither of us really understood the important messages of the UB as regards spiritual growth, nor did we live our lives consecrated to the doing of our Father’s will.

I still believe that a relationship is enhanced by spiritual sharing and, ideally, it would be best if both parties wholly believed the teachings of Jesus. But not far behind would be one in which both parties were at least monotheistic and believed in the ultimate goodness of God.

Having said this, a more over-riding consideration lies in the nature of the relationship itself. Only those relationships in which both parties share mutual love, understanding, and respect have any hope of survival. Our lives down here are short, and differences in beliefs will mean little when you both resurrect on the mansion world and when you both awaken to the same truth.

I am always touched by the excerpt of a Mighty Messenger who continues to be in “close and loving association” with their one-time mortal companion (22:2.6). I’m not sure how long it takes to become a Mighty Messenger but I believe it’s over one billion years. Now that’s love!
chucksmith1982Participant
Jan 4, 2018, 10:36 AM
Hie guys and girls! Sorry for the long absence but I was on vacation without internet access.

An update to my situation! As I predicted, I had a talk with my lady’s mom. She asked me point blank if I was a Christian. I told her no but I was a follower of God, my relationship with him was the most important part of my life, and he has helped me a great deal through the years. She told me that my not being a Christian was proving to be a real struggle for her but that she would be going through the same struggle if her daughter was seeing anyone else that was a follower of a (my words inside perrens here, nonChristian) different religion. Actually, that was a sticking point with her as well. She said that it would not have been as big of an issue if I was a follower of a religion such as Judaism. She would still be struggling with why I was not a Christian though. Her issue with the ub was that it isn’t an actual religion. She sees it as one man’s oppinion concerning the Bible. She is not inclined to go any deeper in her research as well. She also has a problem with the ub psymbol that I wear. She said it looked like a toy. I pointed out to her that the cross wasn’t always the symbol of the Christian church, but the fish was. She had no reply to that. One more thing. She asked me not to tell the family that I am not a Christian.

Bonita, I will coppy the part of your post that I was refering to. You said “I agree, the belief in transubstantiation is a bunch of hocus-pocus hooey,….” That could deeply offend anyone who has deeply held Christian beliefs such as the people I deal with. If any of them read that, they would assume that everyone who was an ub believer had the same attitude of insulting hostility towards Christianity. Also, that attitude is the same one that I get from Christians about the ub. It isn’t my belief system so it doesn’t count. Our job is to present truth in the most favorable light possible. That quote if read by a Christian who held those beliefs as deeply to himself as you hold the ub would not be favorably received. Jesus did not point out errors nor insult anyones’ beliefs. He simply presented new truth in the most favorable light possible. Some were offended because it wasn’t the truth that they were raised with. It wasn’t supported by the religious authority that they subscribed to. Some were not offended but received the new truth gladly. We have the same situation today. It isn’t in the Bible, taught by my church, or isn’t compattible with my current belief system. I was raised with the idea that if it wasn’t in the Bible that it didn’t count as religious truth and should not be studied except for enough to know the basic facts about any religion. I, however, read religious books for intertainment long before I read the ub and the bible. I really wanted to know what others believed though I wasn’t willing to convert to that belief system… until I encountered the ub. It eventually changed every aspect of my life.

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