A question about "celestial ministrations."

23 posts · 4 participants · started Aug 1, 2014, 2:18 AM

1. B

   Brooklyn_bornParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 2:18 AM

   Would the below include celestial ministrations of the local universe, for example, Seraphic ministry, SOT ministry and Holy Spirit ministry,  and any other  ministry of Michael and the Creative Spirit?

    

   92:4.9 5 “… All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all  revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.”

    

   BB

2. M

   MaraParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 4:25 AM

   Here is the context of your excerpt:

   ^{(1008.2)92:4.9} 5. The Urantia Papers. The papers, of which this is one, constitute the most recent presentation of truth to the mortals of Urantia. These papers differ from all previous revelations, for they are not the work of a single universe personality but a composite presentation by many beings. But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly  detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.

   I read this to mean that all other celestial ministrations in the form of epochal revelation are partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions.  I think this refers to large epochal revelations pertaining to an entire planet – a revelation for all peoples of that inhabited world.

   Revelation is complete at the attainment of the Universal Father.

    

    

3. B

   Brooklyn_bornParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 11:44 AM
   Mara wrote:

   Here is the context of your excerpt:

   ^{(1008.2)92:4.9} 5. The Urantia Papers. The papers, of which this is one, constitute the most recent presentation of truth to the mortals of Urantia. These papers differ from all previous revelations, for they are not the work of a single universe personality but a composite presentation by many beings. But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.

   I read this to mean that all other celestial ministrations in the form of epochal revelation are partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions. I think this refers to large epochal revelations pertaining to an entire planet – a revelation for all peoples of that inhabited world. Revelation is complete at the attainment of the Universal Father.

    

   Mara originally I thought the same but after reading that passage again recently I am rethinking my position. Take a look at the following:

    

   But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space.

    

   “Attainment of the Universal Father” is  fusion with TA and  achieving Finaliter status. So, why is the Revelator contrasting partial, celestial ministration with fusion?  And because he is contrasting the two,  I believe what could be inferred is revelation is not limited to writing (e.g., Bible, Books of Enoch, TUB, etc ).  And if  its  methodology is all inclusive  then one could deduce that celestial ministration, excepting fusion, within this context, refers to all known types of ministries in the universe, whether indwelling, encircuiting or seraphic, etc.

   In essence, what I am getting at  is, excluding fusion and attaining Paradise, epochal revelation, I suspect, includes celestial ministries of all kinds, whether indwelling, encircuiting, seraphic, transports, writings…  And they are all partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space.

   BB

4. B

   BradlyParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 12:29 PM

   Greetings BB, Mara…and all.

   My take is quite different on this.  I think it describes the moment of finality, not fusion, two widely different points of progress.  “Attainment” happens on Paradise I think, and if so, then  we are being told that all other forms of revelation of the Father on all lower levels are “partial and transient” which would include any form of revelation in the realms of time and space.  Only in pure spirit form do all prior revelations become “complete” and “attained”.   Fusion happens very early in progress – and only mortals so fuse – but all creatures, high and low of ascendant potential have Father revealed to them through spirit and by the Creator Sons.  Such revelations are not replete however, even for celestials, until Paradise.  Or so I understand the passage.  The limits of revelation lie not in their source but in  the beings who receive such revelations.

   "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

5. B

   Brooklyn_bornParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 12:45 PM
   Bradly wrote:

   Greetings BB, Mara…and all. My take is quite different on this. I think it describes the moment of finality, not fusion, two widely different points of progress. “Attainment” happens on Paradise I think, and if so, then we are being told that all other forms of revelation of the Father on all lower levels are “partial and transient” which would include any form of revelation in the realms of time and space. Only in pure spirit form do all prior revelations become “complete” and “attained”. Fusion happens very early in progress – and only mortals so fuse – but all creatures, high and low of ascendant potential have Father revealed to them through spirit and by the Creator Sons. Such revelations are not replete however, even for celestials, until Paradise. Or so I understand the passage. The limits of revelation lie not in their source but in the beings who receive such revelations.

    

   Bradly, how would you define revelation and what are your thoughts on references in TUB where certain revelators admit not possessing knowledge or understanding in a particular matter of revelation?

   BB

6. B

   BradlyParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 1:01 PM

   Revelation occurs at every level of local universe reality and is delivered by many agents to all beings created.  Revelation is by example – the Creator Sons are the revelation of the Father and planets receive Sons of multiple forms including the Prince, Material Son and Daughter, Teachers, Magesterials, etc.  Revelation is also continuous by the Mother Spirit, TA, and Spirit of Truth to each mind so encircuited.  There are no “epochal” revelations off-planet I don’t think, as epochs refers to planetary upliftement and transition phases.

   The revelators and all celestials are also experiential and their knowledge is also limited to their experience and education so, naturally, they do not know all things or understand all things they might witness.  The universe is  based on continuous education – for all created beings on all levels.  They participate in revelation however and serve many roles in delivering or serving epochal revelation and the outworking of personal revelation as well.  Ascendency is served by all – high and low.  Revelation is a “revealing” of our capacity.  Bio fathers are also to “reveal” the Father to their children.  You are, or can be, a revelator.

   "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

7. B

   BradlyParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 1:19 PM

   Just to be clear, I’m not claiming we are revelators in the sense the celestials or spirits are.  I am saying that revelation has many forms when you consider it to be a “revealing”.  Nature reveals God too.  As do the starry realms above.

   The UB clearly narrows that definition for mortals to either personal or epochal.  So I do not suggest one mortal may make “revelations” to any other mortal.  But we can reveal the Father to others by love and service – an example of one who walks the way of the Lord by making their will align with His.  In this way we can reveal Father to others.  Jesus was a revelator of the epochal kind.  But he also revealed Father in his daily walk, not by truth spoken but by truth lived.

   Apologies if I was confusing.  Important topic and not simple.

    

   "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

8. B

   Brooklyn_bornParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 1:44 PM
   Bradly, what do you think “all other celestial ministration” is based on the quote? Also, I am tending to agree, epochal revelation is confined to Urantia. What is holding me back, however, is the statement “adapted to local conditions in time and space.” Could celestial ministrations extend beyond Urantia reaching local conditions anywhere in time space you would find them?

   9 5. “The Urantia Papers. The papers, of which this is one, constitute the most recent presentation of truth to the mortals of Urantia. These papers differ from all previous revelations, for they are not the work of a single universe personality but a composite presentation by many beings. But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.”

    

   BB

9. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Aug 1, 2014, 2:17 PM

   Brooklyn_born wrote:

   Would the below include celestial ministrations of the local universe, for example, Seraphic ministry, SOT ministry and Holy Spirit ministry,  and any other  ministry of Michael and the Creative Spirit?

   All truth except final, divine truth is relative, and that is because truth revealed in time and space is experiential (2:7.3).  Revelation is another word for truth (101:4.3).  Reception of truth or revelation is entirely dependent on capacity which is variable in time and space (92:4.1).  Truth and revelation outside of Paradise must be a living expression of divinity within experiential realms (2:7.2).  Living things change.

    

10. B

    Brooklyn_bornParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 2:27 PM

    Bonita wrote:

    All truth except final, divine truth is relative, and that is because truth revealed in time and space is experiential (2:7.3). Revelation is another word for truth (101:4.3). Reception of truth or revelation is entirely dependent on capacity which is variable in time and space (92:4.1). Truth and revelation outside of Paradise must be a living expression of divinity within experiential realms (2:7.2). Living things change.

    Bonita, are celestial ministries of any kind considered a ‘revelation’?

    BB

11. M

    MaraParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 2:36 PM

    I think your question about celestial ministrations is: what and who  are they?

    Brooklyn_born wrote:

    Would the below include celestial ministrations of the local universe, for example, Seraphic ministry, SOT ministry and Holy Spirit ministry, and any other ministry of Michael and the Creative Spirit?

    Yes, they are those and many others.  The Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men through many forces and agencies, but mainly through the ministry of seraphim.

     

     

     

     

     

12. M

    MaraParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 2:51 PM

    As Bradley noted, two kinds of revelation are contrasted: personal and epochal.  TUB makes it possible to study the divine character of our Father.  The study of him makes it possible to appreciate the character of the Son, as they are forever and inseparably one.  The Son is a personal revelation of him.  You and I can get insight about them to the degree of the capacity of spiritual receptivity you and I as individuals have, and in my opinion getting insight  is personal revelation.  The ah-ha moment.

13. B

    Brooklyn_bornParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 2:58 PM
    Mara wrote:

    As Bradley noted, two kinds of revelation are contrasted: personal and epochal. TUB makes it possible to study the divine character of our Father. The study of him makes it possible to appreciate the character of the Son, as they are forever and inseparably one. The Son is a personal revelation of him. You and I can get insight about them to the degree of the capacity of spiritual receptivity you and I as individuals have, and in my opinion is personal revelation – insight.

     

    Basically then epochal revelation is the five mentioned in TUB (Dalamatia, Edentia, Melchizedek, Jesus and TUB). Here is my sticking point: would not you include actual celestial ministries (e.g., SOT, THS, indwelling TA and Adjutants, and seraphic ministry) in those epochal revelations? this is what I am trying to figure out.

    BB

14. B

    BonitaParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 3:00 PM

    Brooklyn_born wrote:

    Bonita, are celestial ministries of any kind considered a ‘revelation’?

    All celestial ministries assist in the revelation of truth, but each one in and by itself may not necessarily be a revelation.  They all work as one to increase the capacity of receptivity of an individual in order to assist them in spiritual growth and progress.

    Maybe it would be helpful to define personal revelation?  I think we have a good idea what epochal revelation is all about, but personal revelation is a bit different.  Personal revelation is experiential, meaning it is evolutionary and progressive in its manifestation (92:4.1) and validation (101:2.8).  The celestial agencies, from adjutants all the way up to the Adjusters, must use personal experience as a means of personal revelation.  Humans do the work of discovery (aided by mind ministry) and the celestials help us recognize and interpret so we can chose.  Revelation occurs when all of this attunes with the will of God and becomes part of the individual as living truth.  Bingo! one more truth actualized and revealed as part of the experience of the Supreme, and the individual gets to keep this revelation of the Supreme as part of the soul (117:5.6)

15. B

    Brooklyn_bornParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 3:09 PM

    Bonita wrote:

    All celestial ministries assist in the revelation of truth, but each one in and by itself may not necessarily be a revelation. They all work as one to increase the capacity of receptivity of an individual in order to assist them in spiritual growth and progress. Maybe it would be helpful to define personal revelation? I think we have a good idea what epochal revelation is all about, but personal revelation is a bit different. Personal revelation is experiential, meaning it is evolutionary and progressive in its manifestation (92:4.1) and validation (101:2.8). The celestial agencies, from adjutants all the way up to the Adjusters, must use personal experience as a means of personal revelation. Humans do the work of discovery (aided by mind ministry) and the celestials help us recognize and interpret so we can chose. Revelation occurs when all of this attunes with the will of God and becomes part of the individual as living truth. Bingo! one more truth actualized and revealed as part of the experience of the Supreme, and the individual gets to keep this revelation of the Supreme as part of the soul (117:5.6)

    That makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks! My last question or request (hopefully!), Bonita, is could you  list all “celestial ministrations”  or at least the ones you are aware of that are partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space.

    BB

16. B

    BonitaParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 3:28 PM

    Brooklyn_born wrote:

    could you  list all “celestial ministrations”  or at least the ones you are aware of that are partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space.

    No, I can’t.  There are way too many.  Most of the ministering spirits are representatives of the Creative Spirit.  Then you have all the celestial offspring of the Creator Son as well.  To list them all would mean reprinting a big chunk of the book and that is not practical.  Why do you ask?

17. B

    Brooklyn_bornParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 3:36 PM

    Bonita wrote:

    No, I can’t. There are way too many. Most of the ministering spirits are representatives of the Creative Spirit. Then you have all the celestial offspring of the Creator Son as well. To list them all would mean reprinting a big chunk of the book and that is not practical. Why do you ask?

    You cleared it up for me, Bonita. I wanted to match up what I thought were celestial ministrations with yours. I provide some examples in earlier entries. Basically the ones I mentioned could be included as a part of the overall function of epochal revelations. Thanks for the guidance.

    BB

18. B

    BonitaParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 3:43 PM

    Brooklyn_born wrote:

    Basically the ones I mentioned could be included as a part of the overall function of epochal revelations.

    Don’t forget that even epochal revelation must become personal in order to be realized.  Only those people who internalize the revelation are benefited by it.  And by internalizing it I mean what the revelators wrote in the Foreword:

    0:12.13  But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.

     

19. B

    Brooklyn_bornParticipant
    Aug 1, 2014, 3:48 PM

    Bonita wrote:

    Don’t forget that even epochal revelation must become personal in order to be realized. Only those people who internalize the revelation are benefited by it. And by internalizing it I mean what the revelators wrote in the Foreword:

    0:12.13 But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.

    Ah! I did not know that. Thanks! again.

    BB

20. B

    BradlyParticipant
    Aug 3, 2014, 2:55 PM

    On the subject of the “revealing” of Father by every level of universe beings:

    (1467.2) 132:7.6 Jesus replied: “… religions are not made. The religions of men grow up over long periods of time, while the revelations of God flash upon earth in the lives of the men who reveal God to their fellows.”

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

Reply on the current forum