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The Reign of God in Great Power

54 posts · 9 participants · started Feb 1, 2015, 3:53 PM

BonitaParticipant
Feb 1, 2015, 3:53 PM
Preliminary to the ordination of the twelve apostles, Jesus said the following:

140:1.6 And so shall this kingdom progress in the world until it shall break down every barrier and bring all men to know my Father and believe in the saving truth which I have come to declare. Even now is the kingdom at hand, and some of you will not die until you have seen the reign of God come in great power.

What do you suppose Jesus meant when he said that some of the twelve would not die until they had seen the reign of God come in great power?
Mark KurtzParticipant
Feb 1, 2015, 4:11 PM
I understand he knew there would be many sincere followers of his teachings. Obviously mountains didn’t move, the sun still rises in the east, and other material aspects remain, but in the hearts of people there is new desire to know a different Father, one different than their familiar teachings. Jesus did gain undesired attention because of creator prerogatives, but he did introduce new and dignifying concepts that attracted people. And, he probably had foreknowledge of Peter’s great oratorical skills. He probably had a lot more in mind than we know. He knew the potential of his teachings. The Apostle John was the youngest, a fact Jesus knew and in John’s lifetime a great many people in many countries had heard Jesus’ messages. Not all the Apostles would die early. Add all this up and we can see some of the power Jesus had in mind. We are reminded in the book his teachings are efficacious. He surely is aware of that fact!

Surely there are more details to address this good question.
MaraParticipant
Feb 1, 2015, 4:13 PM
Perhaps it refers to the great power of their preaching. 181:2:11 Peter discovered the story about Jesus had great power. 194:1:2
KerynMember
Feb 1, 2015, 4:37 PM

Bonita wrote:

Preliminary to the ordination of the twelve apostles, Jesus said the following:

140:1.6 And so shall this kingdom progress in the world until it shall break down every barrier and bring all men to know my Father and believe in the saving truth which I have come to declare. Even now is the kingdom at hand, and some of you will not die until you have seen the reign of God come in great power.

What do you suppose Jesus meant when he said that some of the twelve would not die until they had seen the reign of God come in great power?

Perhaps Jesus wasn’t referring to physical death. Perhaps he was alluding to the Apostles being allowed to witness the reign of God in great power at the time when Urantia reaches the stage of light and life – but from Havona or some other stop along their respective ascension paths. Remember, Jesus was looking at things from the perspective of eternity and from a Grand Universe scale.
Mark KurtzParticipant
Feb 1, 2015, 5:33 PM
Another thought: The Reign of God is not through human ecclesiastical authority. The Reign of God is through Spirit resources and it is reaction to the those forces helping us to recognize new relationships that people could see. The Jews and gentiles were not accustomed to hearing spiritually advanced teachings. They were witnessing a new power. Recall, the Revelators remind us the watchword of the cosmos is progress. There is power in the “pressure from above” that moves mankind forward. To us low ones, power is amazing!

More from ya’ll?
BonitaParticipant
Feb 1, 2015, 6:21 PM
Really interesting replies everyone, and thanks for thinking about it. I can honestly say that I have no idea at all what Jesus meant. If it had to do with the many followers of his teaching, I don’t think it had anything to do with the Church as it was in those early times. Also, I doubt that it had anything to do with Peter’s oratory skills about Jesus since we’re told that he totally missed the boat with that one. And if he was talking about death on some higher celestial sphere . . . who dies there? Aren’t most people fused by then? And why would only some die?

So what is the reign of God exactly? Is that the same as the kingdom of God? And by seeing, does Jesus mean with human eyes or spiritual eyes?

I was just reviewing the twelve apostles, trying to find out when they all died. Most of them were dead by the 60’s. Only 4 survived beyond that: John Zebedee, Philip, Thomas and Simon Zelotes. What happened between 67 AD and 103 AD that would be considered as seeing the reign of God come in great power? Maybe he wasn’t talking about events on earth but maybe something happening in heaven in regards to earth?
- Andrew – 60 AD
- Peter – around 67 AD
- James Zebedee- 44 AD
- John Zebedee- 103 AD
- Philip – around 80 AD
- Nathaniel – unknown, possibly around 54 AD
- Matthew Levi- around 60 AD
- Thomas – 72 AD
- Alpheus twins – unknown
- Simon – unknown but lived until old and feeble
- Judas Iscariot – 30 AD
emanny3003Blocked
Feb 1, 2015, 8:06 PM
The kingdom of God is at hand.

Lose your life and you shall save it.

Some of you will not die before you are born again of the spirit.
tasParticipant
Feb 1, 2015, 8:39 PM

Bonita wrote:

So what is the reign of God exactly? Is that the same as the kingdom of God? And by seeing, does Jesus mean with human eyes or spiritual eyes?

Paper 170, section 4 is a good place to look for more I think, I do believe he was talking about God’s reign in believers’ lives, that some of the believers listening to him would feel that reign “in great power” for themselves before they died:

“Jesus never gave a precise definition of the kingdom. At one time he would discourse on one phase of the kingdom, and at another time he would discuss a different aspect of the brotherhood of God’s reign in the hearts of men. In the course of this Sabbath afternoon’s sermon Jesus noted no less than five phases, or epochs, of the kingdom, and they were:

1. The personal and inward experience of the spiritual life of the fellowship of the individual believer with God the Father.

2. The enlarging brotherhood of gospel believers, the social aspects of the enhanced morals and quickened ethics resulting from the reign of God’s spirit in the hearts of individual believers.

3. The supermortal brotherhood of invisible spiritual beings which prevails on earth and in heaven, the superhuman kingdom of God.

4. The prospect of the more perfect fulfillment of the will of God, the advance toward the dawn of a new social order in connection with improved spiritual living—the next age of man.

5. The kingdom in its fullness, the future spiritual age of light and life on earth.”
BonitaParticipant
Feb 1, 2015, 9:11 PM
Pentecost and the coming of the Spirit of Truth happened in 30 AD. Everyone but Judas Iscariot was still alive at that time. Other things that happened between 60-100 AD is that all of the Synoptic Gospels were written; the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed; Nero started martyring believers; Paul of Tarsus and Philo of Alexandria began teaching.

92:5.13 Aside from Jesus, Paul of Tarsus and Philo of Alexandria were the greatest teachers of this era. Their concepts of religion have played a dominant part in the evolution of that faith which bears the name of Christ.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 1, 2015, 9:15 PM

tas wrote: Paper 170, section 4 is a good place to look for more I think, I do believe he was talking about God’s reign in believers’ lives, that some of the believers listening to him would feel that reign “in great power” for themselves before they died:

Good point Tas. So are you saying that it was the enlarging brotherhood of believers, the power that comes from greater numbers of individuals living the Gospel?
emanny3003Blocked
Feb 2, 2015, 12:01 AM

tas wrote:

Paper 170, section 4 is a good place to look for more I think, I do believe he was talking about God’s reign in believers’ lives, that some of the believers listening to him would feel that reign “in great power” for themselves before they died: “Jesus never gave a precise definition of the kingdom. At one time he would discourse on one phase of the kingdom, and at another time he would discuss a different aspect of the brotherhood of God’s reign in the hearts of men. In the course of this Sabbath afternoon’s sermon Jesus noted no less than five phases, or epochs, of the kingdom, and they were: 1. The personal and inward experience of the spiritual life of the fellowship of the individual believer with God the Father. 2. The enlarging brotherhood of gospel believers, the social aspects of the enhanced morals and quickened ethics resulting from the reign of God’s spirit in the hearts of individual believers. 3. The supermortal brotherhood of invisible spiritual beings which prevails on earth and in heaven, the superhuman kingdom of God. 4. The prospect of the more perfect fulfillment of the will of God, the advance toward the dawn of a new social order in connection with improved spiritual living—the next age of man. 5. The kingdom in its fullness, the future spiritual age of light and life on earth.”

Very pithy, Tas.
nelsongParticipant
Feb 2, 2015, 12:37 AM
Possibly the reference is to the ability to SEE that came after the spirit of Truth was poured out?
emanny3003Blocked
Feb 2, 2015, 2:14 AM

nelsong wrote:

Possibly the reference is to the ability to SEE that came after the spirit of Truth was poured out?

I agree nelsong. I see that you can SEE. Your an honest broker, brother.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 2, 2015, 12:41 PM

tas wrote:

2. The enlarging brotherhood of gospel believers, the social aspects of the enhanced morals and quickened ethics resulting from the reign of God’s spirit in the hearts of individual believers.

The more I think about it, the more this sounds right Tas. Jesus may have been referring to the enlarging brotherhood of gospel believers. By the turn of the first century there were small churches forming in almost every large city. At the time of the ordination, I don’t think any of the apostles could have foreseen that as Jesus did.
emanny3003Blocked
Feb 2, 2015, 9:30 PM

Bonita wrote:

The more I think about it, the more this sounds right Tas.

I think nelsong is more correct than Tas. He SEES his way to being even pithier than Tas.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 3, 2015, 3:48 PM
As to the reign of God’s spirit in the hearts of individual believers . . .

God’s spirit in the heart would be the Thought Adjuster within the soul, right? Isn’t that source of great power referred to? Long ago I started a thread on the original forum about soul powers. I referenced the following quote:

p1097:7 100:4.3 But the great problem of religious living consists in the task of unifying the soul powers of the personality by the dominance of LOVE.

I’m wondering if the reign of God in great power has to do with the unifying power of the personality under the dominance of love. It’s odd that the author capitalized the word LOVE. They so rarely do that, and doing so emphasizes its dominating power. So, some of the apostles lived to see this begin to happen. Do you think they lived to see it within themselves?

Now that I think about it some more, perhaps Jesus was talking about individual apostles seeing this power within themselves rather than the socialization of personal religion and the spread of the church. Or, it might be meant both ways. Still pondering.
emanny3003Blocked
Feb 3, 2015, 8:47 PM

Bonita wrote:

Now that I think about it some more, perhaps Jesus was talking about individual apostles seeing this power within themselves rather than the socialization of personal religion and the spread of the church. Or, it might be meant both ways. Still pondering.

One must recognize this power in oneself before recognizing it in others. One first, then the other.
tasParticipant
Feb 4, 2015, 12:48 AM

Bonita wrote:

Good point Tas. So are you saying that it was the enlarging brotherhood of believers, the power that comes from greater numbers of individuals living the Gospel?

I personally am minded so far to think that the “reign of God” he talked about was referring to the listeners as individuals advancing in their spirituality to such an extent that the kingdom of God within would be expressed “in great power” in their lives, that that would be the “reign of God” they’d see. (Pentecost a part of that as well.)

Here’s another tidbit of similar phrasing, from 144:5.42, which is from one of the alternative “Lord’s Prayer” versions:

“… Show us the pathway of eternal progress
And give us the will to walk therein.
Establish within us your divine kingship
And thereby bestow upon us the full mastery of self. …”

To me, establishment of God’s “divine kingship” within and the “reign of God’s spirit in the hearts of individual believers” (170:4.3) seem pretty analogous. This passage also gives the insight of the outcome of this “divine kingship” being a bestowal of full mastery of self.

Bonita wrote:

I’m wondering if the reign of God in great power has to do with the unifying power of the personality under the dominance of love. It’s odd that the author capitalized the word LOVE. They so rarely do that, and doing so emphasizes its dominating power. So, some of the apostles lived to see this begin to happen. Do you think they lived to see it within themselves?

No greater love is there than to lay down your life for others. In the case of Jesus’ listeners, some of them did follow after him and “drink the bitter cup” and give their lives as did he. To me not only is there no greater love than being willing to make such a sacrifice, but it seems it can also be said there’s no greater self mastery than to give up your life for others, wouldn’t you say? A display of self mastery like that would be a demonstration of God’s “divine kingship” within an individual — that the “reign of God’s spirit” had come to them in such “great power” they were able to give this greatest demonstration of love? That’s how it’s looking to me right now.
emanny3003Blocked
Feb 4, 2015, 1:16 AM

tas wrote:

No greater love is there than to lay down your life for others. In the case of Jesus’ listeners, some of them did follow after him and “drink the bitter cup” and give their lives as did he. To me not only is there no greater love than being willing to make such a sacrifice, but it seems it can also be said there’s no greater self mastery than to give up your life for others, wouldn’t you say?

But love is not a sacrifice. It is no sacrifice at all.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 4, 2015, 12:33 PM

tas wrote:

To me not only is there no greater love than being willing to make such a sacrifice, but it seems it can also be said there’s no greater self mastery than to give up your life for others, wouldn’t you say? A display of self mastery like that would be a demonstration of God’s “divine kingship” within an individual — that the “reign of God’s spirit” had come to them in such “great power” they were able to give this greatest demonstration of love? That’s how it’s looking to me right now.

I like the first part of your post about establishing the divine kingship within each individual soul. We are never told if any of the apostles had reached such levels as self-mastery that you speak of though. It doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen to some of them before they died. As for laying down one’s life as evidence of self-mastery . . . I’m not sure. Certainly those martyred must have experienced a great deal of inner strength in order to go through it with such dignity. And it was this dignity during martyrdom that won other souls to the gospel, I think. A good example is Paul. It took Stephen’s martyrdom to eventually win him over. He certainly did experience the reign of God in great power within his own soul, and spread it like a powerful benign virus to the world.

128:3.6 And this was the same Stephen who subsequently became a believer in the teachings of Jesus, and whose boldness in preaching this early gospel resulted in his being stoned to death by irate Jews. Some of Stephen’s extraordinary boldness in proclaiming his view of the new gospel was the direct result of this earlier interview with Jesus. But Stephen never even faintly surmised that the Galilean he had talked with some fifteen years previously was the very same person whom he later proclaimed the world’s Savior, and for whom he was so soon to die, thus becoming the first martyr of the newly evolving Christian faith. WhenStephen yielded up his life as the price of his attack upon the Jewish temple and its traditional practices, there stood by one named Saul, a citizen of Tarsus. And when Saul saw how this Greek could die for his faith, there were aroused in his heart those emotions which eventually led him to espouse the cause for which Stephen died; later on he became the aggressive and indomitable Paul, the philosopher, if not the sole founder, of the Christian religion.

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