↗ Live site
Preview: a read-only copy of the forum. To post or reply, use the current forum.

Suffering

93 posts · 11 participants · started Sep 14, 2017, 7:12 PM

  1. You can say that again Bradly. “Thank you UB.” What confounds me though, of all the people who’ve discovered the Urantia Book, poked around in it, even reading it in its entirety, very few of them actually take it for what it is. Take it serious.

    Keryn:  Really? How do you know? Have you identified “all the people who’ve discovered the Urantia Book” and assessed the degree to which each of them takes it seriously? What an odd statement!

    Enno:  I’ve been talking with more than a few people online who know of the UB. All of them tell me the UB isn’t their cup of tea, to put it mildly. About two dozen. That’s just in one place. It’s just one sample. Then I add in all the friends and family members I’ve introduced the Urantia Book to. That’s what I think is odd. That so many dismiss it. But I know why.

    Keryn:  Sure, but plenty of folks come across the book on their own and are very private about their serious study of a book that many would assume is a rather strange publication by mainstream society standards. Very few people know that I have read the TUB several times and that I believe wholeheartedly in what it teaches. I am very private about it. I think there are others like me. In fact, I would venture to say that TUB appeals to folks who are disinclined to showboat or evangelize or march around with a big sign saying “URANTIA BOOK READER”. ;-) (Not that there’s anything wrong with that, if that’s what people feel called to do.)

    Enno:  The hard thing to do is to present Jesus’s teachings about true religion to someone without making references to the Urantia Book. I don’t think we’re supposed to keep this knowledge to ourselves.

    I would agree with Keryn in multiple ways here.  I am sorry for your suffering Enno.  It is unfortunate…and offers no help, guidance, or value to those you seem so concerned about.  The Master taught it is the fruit of the spirit that we may offer in service to others, not our knowledge.  He also taught we are not to correct or remove anything from the minds of others but to add to and do so in ways that show forth our own inner light….or so I recall.

    I would suggest it is futile, and potentially damaging, to frequent debunkers and non-believers, especially in the hopes of their enlightenment, ‘facilitated’ by your own beliefs and faith.  You may not save any other from their own experience and choices.  And over the decades Enno, and still today, I have met many hundreds of devoted readers who embrace the teachings of the UB, many of whom have or have had a greater understanding and knowledge of its contents than I.  Lazy people abandon the UB…it’s a tough and long read the first 2-3 times, or at least some parts are and they come early in the text.  People gripped by prejudice and preconception abandon the UB too.  The world is filled with ‘truth-butterflies’ who cannot stay with any particular study long enough except to pick up a misconception here and another there, seeking confirmations of prejudice…..NOT truth.  Get used to it.  Not your responsibility.

    It might be more helpful to your own experience to share the inner life with others without expectations of agreement.  Each mind has its own religious experience and response to the Adjutants, God Fragment, and the Spirit of Truth and this is true no matter what knowledge or beliefs or lack of knowledge and inaccurate beliefs one might have.

    This is the glorious good news presented in the UB.  God knows the heart…and forgives all ignorance, confusions, immaturities, uncertainties, and error…and provides the Mansion Worlds for our remedial corrections in time, enjoying full mercy and patience.

    I grew up being taught it was my responsibility to ‘save’ sinners from eternal damnation and suffering.  Such anxiety and falsehood is far more damaging to one’s mind than anything any other might or might not know or believe.

    The fact is, and Jesus proved and exemplified it well enough, there is no religionist that you cannot present the Gospel to in their own scriptures, teachings, creeds, and doctrines.  It is foolish to require the UB to minister the truth to others…and a little lazy and sanctimonious….IMO….and I don’t mean to be harsh….your beliefs here are common enough….if still counterproductive.  The 4th Revelation is obvious, real, and central to Christianity….use it!  I convert Christians all the time….and argue against the heresies of the OT, Paul, and the book of Revelation very effectively.  I convert them into Jesusonians….not UB readers.   Do you know the Jesusonian Gospel as presented in the Bible?  Can you differentiate it from Paulinian doctrine?  And if a true Christian finds a doctrine which contradicts Jesus Gospel…have you seen the pause of consideration and bewilderment that occurs?  I have.  It’s a wonderful thing to see a light bulb blink on…even if it causes some confusion in its consideration.  Good enough!  Simply help someone to think and consider that which they already embrace in some form.  What did Jesus teach?  Teach that….and forget about the UB as some miracle of knowledge that others must accept to know love and find faith and attach to the branch and bring forth the fruits of the spirit.

    Mind poisons deliver suffering.  Anxiety and doubts are such poisons.  Have you faith?  Then have it to yourself.  There’s a quote for that.

    I hope Enno that you take this in the spirit of care and hope in which it has been written.  Find peace Enno.  Share that.  It’ll be okay.

    ;-)

    (1661.5) 148:5.3 “But, my son, you should know that the Father does not purposely afflict his children. Man brings down upon himself unnecessary affliction as a result of his persistent refusal to walk in the better ways of the divine will. Affliction is potential in evil, but much of it has been produced by sin and iniquity. Many unusual events have transpired on this world, and it is not strange that all thinking men should be perplexed by the scenes of suffering and affliction which they witness. But of one thing you may be sure: The Father does not send affliction as an arbitrary punishment for wrongdoing. The imperfections and handicaps of evil are inherent; the penalties of sin are inevitable; the destroying consequences of iniquity are inexorable. Man should not blame God for those afflictions which are the natural result of the life which he chooses to live; neither should man complain of those experiences which are a part of life as it is lived on this world. It is the Father’s will that mortal man should work persistently and consistently toward the betterment of his estate on earth. Intelligent application would enable man to overcome much of his earthly misery.

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  2. In my opinion, it is not our responsibility to show others the ‘true religion’. That’s what everyone has Thought Adjusters for. Of course, if someone is sincerely seeking and requests our guidance, help, ideas, suggestions, or asks what our own spiritual practice may be, then absolutely, sharing is Godlike.

    I think that true religion is being in touch with spirit. It is personal because it is a personal choice. If we organize it reverts back to a political or institutional religion that don’t have much real value. So how we manifest the spirit in our lives will draw more attention than preaching and it would do well for Urantians to get involved with the political or economic systems that require an upgrade. Integrity, honesty, loyalty, dedication, love, joy in serving etc – all much in short supply out there and setting an example is really needed

  3. Bradly, I’m not suffering. Why does it seem that you always look for fault?

    Personal fault?

    People I converse with regarding spiritual matters tell me THEY suffer spiritually. That they’re unable to have faith in God because everything they know about what traditional religions teach, is dismally hard to believe and have faith in.

    They are crying out for relief from the situation.

    And they plainly ask me for help. But, it seems it’s all a bridge too far right now. But I won’t let the suggestion that it isn’t my responsibility to be of assistance stop me from doing so.

    I’m merely confiding with you, the followers of Jesus, what is happening with my endeavors to follow Jesus too.

     

     

  4. Bradly, I’m not suffering. Why does it seem that you always look for fault? Personal fault? People I converse with regarding spiritual matters tell me THEY suffer spiritually. That they’re unable to have faith in God because everything they know about what traditional religions teach, is dismally hard to believe and have faith in. They are crying out for relief from the situation. And they plainly ask me for help. But, it seems it’s all a bridge too far right now. But I won’t let the suggestion that it isn’t my responsibility to be of assistance stop me from doing so. I’m merely confiding with you, the followers of Jesus, what is happening with my endeavors to follow Jesus too.

     

    I see I have failed in my hope and quest.  I did not mean to find fault…but to recommend strategies I’ve found effective.  You say its hard to present truth without the UB…I disagree.

    You also seem to fault the entire student body in your recent quotes based on your very limited experience with a “few” so-called readers, about “two dozen” which led you to a rather encompassing declaration about the entirety of the readership.  So I guess it’s alright for you to find fault in others….but not me?

    A curious rebuke.  And I never said it’s not your or mine or all’s “responsibility to be of assistance”….who are you assisting?  And I thought you were bemoaning your lack of  traction and success?  And perhaps even seeking the ‘assistance’ and guidance of others based on their experience?

    My mistake.   The UB says many starve and thirst while sitting at the banquet table.  I wonder how we might make them eat and drink when the spirit within still waits for the response to their endless whisper?

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  5. I wonder how we might make them eat and drink when the spirit within still waits for the response to their endless whisper?
    They will need to respond on their own and take a drink and eat what’s in front of them. If they won’t, which is where our responsibility ends, maybe that’s what’ll make them unsalvable.
  6. Would it be too much to ask the two of you to stop the incessant bickering at each other and get back to the topic?

    Here’s the best quote which clearly explains the reason for anyone’s failure to deliver the Jesus message:

    P.1726 – §2 “Let me emphatically state this eternal truth: If you, by truth co-ordination, learn to exemplify in your lives this beautiful wholeness of righteousness, your fellow men will then seek after you that they may gain what you have so acquired. The measure wherewith truth seekers are drawn to you represents the measure of your truth endowment, your righteousness. The extent to which you have to go with your message to the people is, in a way, the measure of your failure to live the whole or righteous life, the truth-co-ordinated life .”

     

  7. Hahahaha….great advice Bonita!!  Don’t know how we got out into this patch of weeds.  Reminds me of the wheat and tares….the determination of who is which is not ours to determine in any regard.  Speaking of suffering…and sympathy, the teaching about false sympathy comes to mind.  We are to be cautious and judicious in our sympathies and not be overly concerned with that suffering is self  inflicted and self selected:

    159:3.11 (1766.7) Teach all believers to avoid leaning upon the insecure props of false sympathy. You cannot develop strong characters out of the indulgence of self-pity; honestly endeavor to avoid the deceptive influence of mere fellowship in misery. Extend sympathy to the brave and courageous while you withhold overmuch pity from those cowardly souls who only halfheartedly stand up before the trials of living. Offer not consolation to those who lie down before their troubles without a struggle. Sympathize not with your fellows merely that they may sympathize with you in return.

    159:3.12 (1766.8) When my children once become self-conscious of the assurance of the divine presence, such a faith will expand the mind, ennoble the soul, reinforce the personality, augment the happiness, deepen the spirit perception, and enhance the power to love and be loved.

    159:3.13 (1767.1) Teach all believers that those who enter the kingdom are not thereby rendered immune to the accidents of time or to the ordinary catastrophes of nature. Believing the gospel will not prevent getting into trouble, but it will insure that you shall be unafraid when trouble does overtake you. If you dare to believe in me and wholeheartedly proceed to follow after me, you shall most certainly by so doing enter upon the sure pathway to trouble. I do not promise to deliver you from the waters of adversity, but I do promise to go with you through all of them.

    ;-)

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  8. We’re not to offer consolation to pusillanimous souls, but I think it’s okay to offer them a way to SEE themselves and how they contribute to their own misery.

    We’re not supposed to fix things for people, but help them fix things themselves.  And there are so many ways to do that, the best of course, is just being a beacon of light, as best as able.  Helping others should come from mercy, not pity.  Don’t forget that quote which informs us that there are several steps between pity and true mercy.  Sometimes I think folks confuse pity with mercy.

    Most of the trouble our current society is in has been caused by overzealous “help” given out of pity, which promotes victimhood mentality.  Today, any effort to correct victimhood mentality is met with fierce opposition.  It has become deeply etched into the collective psyche.  I have no idea how to go about reversing this damage, but sooner or later, it has to happen.  Sooner or later people have to learn how to reach deep down inside themselves for help in alleviating their suffering.  Right now it’s the opposite for so many, and unfortunately, our government rewards it because it buys votes.  It’s a terrible and vicious downward cycle.

  9. Jesus said always respect the personality of man. . .
    159:3.2  Always respect the personality of man. Never should a righteous cause be promoted by force; spiritual victories can be won only by spiritual power. This injunction against the employment of material influences refers to psychic force as well as to physical force. Overpowering arguments and mental superiority are not to be employed to coerce men and women into the kingdom. Man’s mind is not to be crushed by the mere weight of logic or overawed by shrewd eloquence. While emotion as a factor in human decisions cannot be wholly eliminated, it should not be directly appealed to in the teachings of those who would advance the cause of the kingdom. Make your appeals directly to the divine spirit that dwells within the minds of men. Do not appeal to fear, pity, or mere sentiment. In appealing to men, be fair; exercise self-control and exhibit due restraint; show proper respect for the personalities of your pupils. Remember that I have said: “Behold, I stand at the door and knock, and if any man will open, I will come in.
    Remember what he said:
    “Behold, I stand at the door and knock, and if any man will open, I will come in.”
    Jesus said this to Simon:
    When Simon Zelotes and Jesus were alone, Simon asked the Master: “Why is it that I could not persuade him? Why did he so resist me and so readily lend an ear to you?” Jesus answered: “Simon, Simon, how many times have I instructed you to refrain from all efforts to take something out of the hearts of those who seek salvation? How often have I told you to labor only to put something into these hungry souls? Lead men into the kingdom, and the great and living truths of the kingdom will presently drive out all serious error. When you have presented to mortal man the good news that God is his Father, you can the easier persuade him that he is in reality a son of God. And having done that, you have brought the light of salvation to the one who sits in darkness. Simon, when the Son of Man came first to you, did he come denouncing Moses and the prophets and proclaiming a new and better way of life? No. I came not to take away that which you had from your forefathers but to show you the perfected vision of that which your fathers saw only in part. Go then, Simon, teaching and preaching the kingdom, and when you have a man safely and securely within the kingdom, then is the time, when such a one shall come to you with inquiries, to impart instruction having to do with the progressive advancement of the soul within the divine kingdom.”
  10. Respecting the personality would also mean respecting the free-will.  If folks freely will themselves into suffering, what can you do?

  11. I cannot see any way out of suffering in my life. Neither do I want to.

    Suffering in my life has never been continuous, mostly it’s here and then soon it’s gone. I can speak from experience that a lot of suffering in my life has been caused by negative thinking and I don’t know that I will be able to eliminate it in this life. I prefer when suffering in my life is not my own doing because it’s easier to swallow and doesn’t come with as much regret.

    These days my goal is not to eliminate suffering at all, I am trying to embrace it as part of my spiritual path and that is no mean feat. When I am in it, when I am really suffering, that last thing on my mind is the thought “I need this right now.” The first thing on my mind is “here we go again, just what I need–more bull*&#%.” I have never and still don’t do well when I am kicked to the ground again and again. It seems that the spirit realm understands this about me because despair is dished out in small doses over short periods of time where I can handle it without going off the deep end too pathetically.

    It seems as though the suffering in my life is never catastrophic, almost as though I am gently given just enough to do the job. Sometimes I wonder just how weak I really am or is it that I don’t need catastrophe? I just wonder, am I even being hardened at all, or am I not ready yet, because it seems that what suffering I do have in my life–even though it’s on-going yet random–doesn’t compare with what I see others going through. I still can’t help but feel that a lot of my suffering is my own thoughts, self induced.

     

    All in all I think most of the suffering, big and little, I’ve gone through has been a great teacher to me. I hate it when it happens but when it’s all over I am grateful for having gone through it. I like where I am emotionally on the other side of it and I am sure that spiritually (even though I may not recognize it) I am advancing even if ever so little. Suffering is my love-hate friend for life.

     

    Paul

  12. Another thought;   At the gym today in Palmdale, California I was speaking to a woman from Spain. Several of us got into a conversation about places around the world to visit or live and she mentioned that old saying– “in America you live to work and in Europe they work to live.”

    That saying got me thinking. Perhaps one aspect of our culture that has made America so different from the rest of the world is that we are not afraid to “suffer” through a life that lives to work. There is surely a price to be paid and in America, we certainly work a lot. This last week I worked almost 70 hours. Sometimes I think I’m a fool for working so hard. On the other hand, what else is there to do but contribute-to be of use? It is not the self that is important, it is the work. Personally, my work has put me into many short relationships where I was useful to another human being in some positive way, not to mention my contribution to society, keeping the economy moving.

    I won’t keep going at this pace all my life but, I am happy to be part of a society that places a value on the activity of working, even working hard and or long hours, there is not only honor in it, there is virtue. I know that my job is somewhat extreme in its demands and a change is coming in my life so that I can live in moderation and have time for a more personal long term relationship with someone crazy like myself.

    Anyhow in America I think we have benefited from our “live to work” society, suffering through what it takes to be what we are today.

    Paul

     

  13. Welcome Xobeht

    work is good

    i retired 12 years ago and still working

    it keeps the demons away.

  14. . . .I am trying to embrace it as part of my spiritual path . . . .

    It’s an uphill struggle for many.

     

    111:7.2  May I admonish you to heed the distant echo of the Adjuster’s faithful call to your soul? The indwelling Adjuster cannot stop or even materially alter your career struggle of time; the Adjuster cannot lessen the hardships of life as you journey on through this world of toil. The divine indweller can only patiently forbear while you fight the battle of life as it is lived on your planet; but you could, if you only would — as you work and worry, as you fight and toil — permit the valiant Adjuster to fight with you and for you. You could be so comforted and inspired, so enthralled and intrigued, if you would only allow the Adjuster constantly to bring forth the pictures of the real motive, the final aim, and the eternal purpose of all this difficult, uphill struggle with the commonplace problems of your present material world.

     

    Such a life on this world of toil.

  15. What is its cause?  What is its solution?

    In my opinion the causes and solutions of suffering are found both within the person and on the outside.  This little paragraph gave me pause to arrive at my opinion.

    91:6.2  Prayer is not a technique for curing real and organic diseases, but it has contributed enormously to the enjoyment of abundant health and to the cure of numerous mental, emotional, and nervous ailments. And even in actual bacterial disease, prayer has many times added to the efficacy of other remedial procedures. Prayer has turned many an irritable and complaining invalid into a paragon of patience and made him an inspiration to all other human sufferers.
    Isn’t suffering of some sort an inevitibility?  Jesus said, among other things,
    166:4.4   “The Father causes his rain to fall on the just and the unjust; the sun likewise shines on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

     

  16. I look at suffering the same way Paul does. This might sound weird but my attitude towards it is “bring it on.”

    So far I can honestly say, although I can’t exactly say that I enjoy suffering, I can say that when it resolves a great peace comes over me, a sense of satisfaction, a knowledge that I’ve grown and accomplished something.

    The trick while the suffering is occurring though, is to gain a strong foothold on self-control in order for it to become the tool needed to make the climb.

     

     

  17. Even in the *golden age* of Light and Life, disease has not been entirely vanquished.
    55:3.1   During this age of light and life the world increasingly prospers under the fatherly rule of the Planetary Sovereign. By this time the worlds are progressing under the momentum of one language, one religion, and, on normal spheres, one race. But this age is not perfect. These worlds still have well-appointed hospitals, homes for the care of the sick. There still remain the problems of caring for accidental injuries and the inescapable infirmities attendant upon the decrepitude of old age and the disorders of senility. Disease has not been entirely vanquished, neither have the earth animals been subdued in perfection; but such worlds are like Paradise in comparison with the early times of primitive man during the pre-Planetary Prince age. You would instinctively describe such a realm — could you be suddenly transported to a planet in this stage of development — as heaven on earth.
  18. If suffering is caused by imperfection, both in personal and nonpersonal actuality, then isn’t the goal, first personal light and life, followed by planetary light and life, then system light and life, etc., etc., until full emergence of the Supreme when everything will be perfected?

  19. So, what exactly is suffering?

     

  20. Exerpted from:  (51.4) 3:5.5 The uncertainties of life and the vicissitudes of existence do not in any manner contradict the concept of the universal sovereignty of God. All evolutionary creature life is beset by certain inevitabilities. Consider the following:
    [. . .]
    3:5.14  9. Is pleasure — the satisfaction of happiness — desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.

Reply on the current forum

↑ Back to top