Gene wrote: christians preach and are driven to do so, isn’t it part of being Christian? other religions are persuasive in much less pleasant ways but there is the same crusader driving that religionists tend to experience. im not sure if this is a good or bad thing. john did not survive very long but he drew many believers.I think you’re missing something here. What John the Baptist did was based on evolutionary religious and cultural beliefs, not spiritual faith. I don’t want to go into Jewish history right now, but even Jesus said that anyone who had entered the kingdom of heaven was greater than John. What do you suppose he meant by that? I think he meant that John’s preaching was based upon a belief system centered on the false premise of racial sin and the need for a Messiah, among other things. Those things are beliefs; they are NOT not faith. Faith is the only thing that can get get you into the kingdom of heaven. Belief doesn’t get you there unless it leads to faith. People usually don’t preach their faith, they live it. People often preach their beliefs; and frankly, who needs it?
136:01 Though Jesus spoke of John as the greatest of the prophets of the old order, he also said that the least of those who saw the great light of the new way and entered thereby into the kingdom of heaven was indeed greater than John. 144:8.4 “Verily, verily, I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen a greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is but small in the kingdom of heaven is greater because he has been born of the spirit and knows that he has become a son of God.”
Beliefs don’t necessarily come from the spirit, however faith does. Faith is a gift. Beliefs are ideas formulated by the human intellect to explain things that can’t be rationally proved or logically understood. Beliefs can be right or wrong, but they are purely human. Faith is a gift from the spirit that can only be had by a relationship with spirit. Beliefs come out of human relations; faith is the result of a spirit relationship. There’s a huge difference between the two. Those who crusade their beliefs are often deluded and those who follow are often misled. On the other hand, some people do go off the rails and start crusading if they experience a sudden spiritual conversion, and that’s not necessarily a good thing either. I know that TUB says that another John the Baptist will eventually come, but the new John the Baptist will not necessarily be preaching his beliefs, but rather attempting to bring Jesus’ actual gospel back into the light. As I see it, this would be all about faith, not beliefs.
170:5.19 Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arise proclaiming “the kingdom of God is at hand” – meaning a return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer – and doing all this without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth or to the anticipated second coming of Christ. There must come a revival of the actual teachings of Jesus, such a restatement as will undo the work of his early followers who went about to create a sociophilosophical system of belief regarding the fact of Michael’s sojourn on earth. In a short time the teaching of this story about Jesus nearly supplanted the preaching of Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom. In this way a historical religion displaced that teaching in which Jesus had blended man’s highest moral
i didn’t miss the Jewish cultural issues of the times but I did think that John may have been driven by something greater than the rewards of power and wealth that Moses taught.
he did have a brief relationship with Jesus and if memory serves he knew about the Gabriel visits?
Also, the repentance thing was something new.
dont want to get distracted by him so much, just thinking about that urge to save people and if it had anything in common with people who attempt it today.
. . . so many falter and fail. . . .
69 posts · 9 participants · started Apr 8, 2017, 9:02 PM
- Gene wrote: i didn’t miss the Jewish cultural issues of the times but I did think that John may have been driven by something greater than the rewards of power and wealth that Moses taught.
Hmmm, not sure we’re on the same page when it comes to Jewish religious and cultural issues of the first century. I’m not sure why you think it has something to do with the rewards of power and wealth . . . lost on that. Not the first time though.
Gene wrote: he did have a brief relationship with Jesus and if memory serves he knew about the Gabriel visits?Yeah, but he thought it meant that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.
Gene wrote: Also, the repentance thing was something new.No it wasn’t. John considered baptism as a form of purification, just like all Jews, he was obsessed with ritual cleanliness. John wanted the whole nation to purify itself to please God, which he hoped would bring the Messiah. He took his lead from the prophets before him, Amos; Hosea; Isaiah; Micah; Elijah . . . who all preached repentance and the end times which preceded the Messiah. There’s more to it than that, but I don’t want to derail Mara’s thread.
135:3.4 From all John heard of the vice and wickedness of Rome and the dissoluteness and moral barrenness of the empire, from what he knew of the evil doings of Herod Antipas and the governors of Judea, he was minded to believe that the end of the age was impending. It seemed to this rugged and noble child of nature that the world was ripe for the end of the age of man and the dawn of the new and divine age – the kingdom of heaven. The feeling grew in John’s heart that he was to be the last of the old prophets and the first of the new. And he fairly vibrated with the mounting impulse to go forth and proclaim to all men: “Repent! Get right with God! Get ready for the end; prepare yourselves for the appearance of the new and eternal order of earth affairs, the kingdom of heaven.”
Gene wrote: dont want to get distracted by him so much, just thinking about that urge to save people and if it had anything in common with people who attempt it today.I’m not sure John was trying to save people. Wasn’t he just announcing the end of an age? I think the rationale was to get as many Jews as possible to purify themselves in order to bring it on. Honestly though . . . I don’t know what motivates people today to claim they’re saving the world. That’s something I cannot identify with . . . sorry.
- Bradly wrote: Notice in the second quote “finally and forever”….who on Urantia has made such a choice? Perhaps sociopaths and psychopaths? Those whose indifference to every and all people makes them heartless, cruel, indifferent, and take delight in causing suffering in others may indeed have killed their soul or never had one. I would claim that one must kill their soul while living here to not survive to the Mansion Worlds….and I’m not sure what that takes to “finally and forever” close their hearts with no chance for remediation. One has a flicker if they have a soul.
You’ve said some really good things there Bradley. The “finally and forever” thing sticks with me. How can anyone on earth really understand the “finally and forever” issue? Nevertheless, it does happen apparently. People do make these decisions in the first life. We’re told that at the dispensation roll calls the guardian of the soul of an unjust person shows up but the Adjuster doesn’t, and that’s the end of existence. All mercy credits are used up somehow. I would think that such a person must be completely amoral . . . no human level of morality at all . . . which would mean the individual was functioning on the animal level of existence, and animals are not survivable critters. But we are told in the next quote that it is none of our concern:
113:6.8 The technique of justice demands that personal or group guardians shall respond to the dispensational roll call in behalf of all nonsurviving personalities. The Adjusters of such nonsurvivors do not return, and when the rolls are called, the seraphim respond, but the Adjusters make no answer. This constitutes the “resurrection of the unjust,” in reality the formal recognition of the cessation of creature existence. This roll call of justice always immediately follows the roll call of mercy, the resurrection of the sleeping survivors. But these are matters which are of concern to none but the supreme and all-knowing Judges of survival values. Such problems of adjudication do not really concern us.
49.6.7 Thus are the sleeping survivors of a planetary age repersonalized in the dispensational roll calls. But with regard to the nonsalvable personalities of a realm, no immortal spirit is present to function with the group guardians of destiny, and this constitutes cessation of creature existence. While some of your records have pictured these events as taking place on the planets of mortal death, they all really occur on the mansion worlds.
Here’s another quote that is worth adding to this conversation:
54:6.9 One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.
(130:1.6) “Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest.”
Does the wheat need the tares in order to grow?
In order to choose truth to survive, does one need to grow side by side with those who choose error?
G’day all,
Julian, what a relief and satisfaction have you back at your desk. Like many brotherhousians undisturbed warms, attentive and loving regards to you.
Affectionate embrace,
André
G’day all post #24616 Mara
As pointing from Bradley the quote from UB 109:5.4 do not concern survival status.
Man’s final doom 5:1.11 or behavior strictly matter our own personal relationship with God.
139:6.5 … Said Jesus: “Judas, watch carefully your steps; do not overmagnify your office. Who of us is competent to judge his brother? … Go then, Judas, and do well that which has been intrusted to you but leave Nathaniel, your brother, to give account of himself to God.”
All those speculations among us [readers] specifically concerning others acts, attitudes or conducts are sort of natural primitive evolutionary pathway.
Mara my thoughts as ask on your post are kindly presented not an iota offensive.
With affection,
André
G’day all,
post #24624 Gene Trying to comprehend divine mercy is useless.
Gene different from your present assertion … looking for myself to understand significations and values of mercy participate to discern and figure out better characteristics of our Father. An expansion of what TUB call cosmic conscience.
Knowing my Father first apply mercy way before apply justice render Him lovable. Give meaning to the attribute and personification He his LOVE. Divine mercy implied …
Wants to reconsidered your position on this subject? http://www.urantia.org/topical-studies/mercy
Brotherly,
André
- VanAmadon wrote: In order to choose truth to survive, does one need to grow side by side with those who choose error?
We do NOT require actual evil-doers around us in order to recognize truth, beauty and goodness, or to choose survival. All that is necessary is the potential for evil-doing in order to provide moral options for free-will choice. All we need is the ability to recognize potential evil in order to select the alternative.
132:2.10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.
I think another reason God permits evil-doers to exist side by side with perfection-seekers is because of the benefits for soul growth, which takes time. Also, this situation presents moral dilemmas which are the very fuel for soul growth.
54:4.7 The mercy delays of time are by the mandate of the free will of the Creators. There is good to be derived in the universe from this technique of patience in dealing with sinful rebels. While it is all too true that good cannot come of evil to the one who contemplates and performs evil, it is equally true that all things (including evil, potential and manifest) work together for good to all beings who know God, love to do his will, and are ascending Paradiseward according to his eternal plan and divine purpose.
111:6.1 Many of the temporal troubles of mortal man grow out of his twofold relation to the cosmos. Man is a part of nature—he exists in nature—and yet he is able to transcend nature. Man is finite, but he is indwelt by a spark of infinity. Such a dual situation not only provides the potential for evil but also engenders many social and moral situations fraught with much uncertainty and not a little anxiety.
Manifested evil can work for the good in people who know God even though it has destructive effects for the actual evil-doer him/herself. I don’t think this only means that we learn from other people’s mistakes. I think the moral dilemmas it engenders also help us to learn mercy. When it comes to learning mercy there are definite steps that must be traversed, and this requires a time delay for the learning process to take place. Also, soul growth comes from learning how to not hold grudges, how to forgive others, how to return good for evil, and how to climb the golden rule ladder, among other things.
28:6.8 While the spirit techniques of mercy ministry are beyond your concept, you should even now understand that mercy is a quality of growth. You should realize that there is a great reward of personal satisfaction in being first just, next fair, then patient, then kind. And then, on that foundation, if you choose and have it in your heart, you can take the next step and really show mercy; but you cannot exhibit mercy in and of itself. These steps must be traversed; otherwise there can be no genuine mercy.
146:2.4 Even the forgiveness of sin operates in this same unerring fashion. The Father in heaven has forgiven you even before you have thought to ask him, but such forgiveness is not available in your personal religious experience until such a time as you forgive your fellow men. God’s forgiveness in fact is not conditioned upon your forgiving your fellows, but in experience it is exactly so conditioned. And this fact of the synchrony of divine and human forgiveness was thus recognized and linked together in the prayer which Jesus taught the apostles.
Below are a host of additional quotes which explain why only potential evil is necessary for mortal choosing: (Incidentally, this totally obliterates the lie of original sin.)
130:4.14 Potential evil is inherent in the necessary incompleteness of the revelation of God as a time-space-limited expression of infinity and eternity. The fact of the partial in the presence of the complete constitutes relativity of reality, creates necessity for intellectual choosing, and establishes value levels of spirit recognition and response. The incomplete and finite concept of the Infinite which is held by the temporal and limited creature mind is, in and of itself, potential evil. But the augmenting error of unjustified deficiency in reasonable spiritual rectification of these originally inherent intellectual disharmonies and spiritual insufficiencies, is equivalent to the realization of actual evil.
54:0.2 The Gods neither create evil nor permit sin and rebellion. Potential evil is time-existent in a universe embracing differential levels of perfection meanings and values.Sin is potential in all realms where imperfect beings are endowed with the ability to choose between good and evil. The very conflicting presence of truth and untruth, fact and falsehood, constitutes the potentiality of error. The deliberate choice of evil constitutes sin; the willful rejection of truth is error; the persistent pursuit of sin and error is iniquity.
132:2.7 Goodness is found in the recognition of the positive truth-values of the spiritual level, which must, in human experience, be contrasted with the negative counterpart – the shadows of potential evil.
130:1.6 Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest.
3:5.13 Is unselfishness–the spirit of self-forgetfulness–desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.
3:6.2 The will of God is divine truth, living love; therefore are the perfecting creations of the evolutionary universes characterized by goodness – nearness to divinity; by potential evil – remoteness from divinity.
148:4.8 Men are, indeed, by nature evil, but not necessarily sinful. The new birth—the baptism of the spirit—is essential to deliverance from evil and necessary for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, but none of this detracts from the fact that man is the son of God. Neither does this inherent presence of potential evil mean that man is in some mysterious way estranged from the Father in heaven so that, as an alien, foreigner, or stepchild, he must in some manner seek for legal adoption by the Father. All such notions are born, first, of your misunderstanding of the Father and, second, of your ignorance of the origin, nature, and destiny of man.
4:3.6 The infinite goodness of the Father is beyond the comprehension of the finite mind of time; hence must there always be afforded a contrast with comparative evil (not sin) for the effective exhibition of all phases of relative goodness. Perfection of divine goodness can be discerned by mortal imperfection of insight only because it stands in contrastive association with relative imperfection in the relationships of time and matter in the motions of space.
111:4.11 This is the problem: If freewill man is endowed with the powers of creativity in the inner man, then must we recognize that freewill creativity embraces the potential of freewill destructivity.
132:3.8 Spiritual evolution is an experience of the increasing and voluntary choice of goodness attended by an equal and progressive diminution of the possibility of evil. With the attainment of finality of choice for goodness and of completed capacity for truth appreciation, there comes into existence a perfection of beauty and holiness whose righteousness eternally inhibits the possibility of the emergence of even the concept of potential evil. Such a God-knowing soul casts no shadow of doubting evil when functioning on such a high spirit level of divine goodness.
G’day all,
post #24624 Gene Trying to comprehend divine mercy is useless.
Gene different from your present assertion … looking for myself to understand significations and values of mercy participate to discern and figure out better characteristics of our Father. An expansion of what TUB call cosmic conscience. Knowing my Father first apply mercy way before apply justice render Him lovable. Give meaning to the attribute and personification He his LOVE. Divine mercy implied … Wants to reconsidered your position on this subject? http://www.urantia.org/topical-studies/mercy Brotherly, André
thank you Andre’ I am not very articulate.
as Gods mercy in infinite, comprehension is limited. I was also thinking that we have been instructed that we should not make assumptions about how it is given.
Being merciful is likely better than thinking about what may be coming to us.
Gene – about what may be coming to us…..eternal adventure is coming and I think about it all the time!!
108:6.6 (1193.5) And as you are the human parent, so is the Adjuster the divine parent of the real you, your higher and advancing self, your better morontial and future spiritual self. And it is this evolving morontial soul that the judges and censors discern when they decree your survival and pass you upward to new worlds and never-ending existence in eternal liaison with your faithful partner — God, the Adjuster.
108:6.7 (1193.6) The Adjusters are the eternal ancestors, the divine originals, of your evolving immortal souls; they are the unceasing urge that leads man to attempt the mastery of the material and present existence in the light of the spiritual and future career. The Monitors are the prisoners of undying hope, the founts of everlasting progression. And how they do enjoy communicating with their subjects in more or less direct channels! How they rejoice when they can dispense with symbols and other methods of indirection and flash their messages straight to the intellects of their human partners!
108:6.8 (1194.1) You humans have begun an endless unfolding of an almost infinite panorama, a limitless expanding of never-ending, ever-widening spheres of opportunity for exhilarating service, matchless adventure, sublime uncertainty, and boundless attainment. When the clouds gather overhead, your faith should accept the fact of the presence of the indwelling Adjuster, and thus you should be able to look beyond the mists of mortal uncertainty into the clear shining of the sun of eternal righteousness on the beckoning heights of the mansion worlds of Satania.
Gene, I believe the Blue Ribbon of achievement is won by sincerity, not articulation! You’re a blue ribbon winner already!! May you feel the sublime assurance of a faith son on the path to your eternal destiny of adventure! = )
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
Thank you Bradley
great quotes.
This adventure is almost too good to be true. Who in their right mind could refuse.
Julian, what a relief and satisfaction have you back at your desk. Like many brotherhousians undisturbed warms, attentive and loving regards to you.
Thank you Andre for your loving words of encouragement. I really appreciate the friendship of my fellow Forum participants!
VanAmadon wrote: In order to choose truth to survive, does one need to grow side by side with those who choose error?
Bonita’s reply: “We do NOT require actual evil-doers around us in order to recognize truth, beauty and goodness, or to choose survival. All that is necessary is the potential for evil-doing in order to provide moral options for free-will choice. All we need is the ability to recognize potential evil in order to select the alternative.”
132:2.10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice. I think another reason God permits evil-doers to exist side by side with perfection-seekers is because of the benefits for soul growth, which takes time. Also, this situation presents moral dilemmas which are the very fuel for soul growth.
Me here: I think there are two more reasons for the tares and wheat to grow alongside one another: First, the tares are protected by the inviolate nature of their free will….so what’s the alternative?
More importantly, the wheat is even more important to the tares than the tares are to the wheat!!! The faith children demonstrating the fruits of the spirit are models and examples (or at least confounding and irritating paradoxes) for those who are not responding to the mind ministries of the Spirit….or those who are but become more emboldened in their quest to transfer the seat of identity from materialism and attachments to spiritualization!! The wheat of every generation plants the seed for the next and the next all the way through all the evolutionary mortal epochs! The seed which falls on good soil propagates more seed and slowly chokes out all the tares in the fields of harvest to come.
We are all on a spectrum of reality-ization and we all need one another for encouragements and examples. We are taught that the life Jesus led is our greatest example (and in all of Nebadon as well). I think in some ways, I see the wheat and tares not only as individual souls/minds or the collective “field” of souls/minds but also every evil I have committed and its reciprocal effects are in contrast within my own awareness/consciousness with the hope, faith, love, truth, beauty, goodness, and service choices I have made. Those tares will be left behind in the fields of the temporal past when the shores of Mansonia are reached. Likewise, every soul that survives will arrive without such baggage themselves….and will no longer be tares at all!!!!! = )
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
- Bradly wrote: Those tares will be left behind in the fields of the temporal past when the shores of Mansonia are reached. Likewise, every soul that survives will arrive without such baggage themselves….and will no longer be tares at all!!!!! = )
That’s really interesting. I know that everything of value survives, but is that all that survives? I have lived my life with the assumption that I will eventually have to answer for the mistakes I’ve made in this life. I don’t mean being punished, but to come to terms with those folks I’ve wronged in any way, and also those folks who have wronged me whom I’ve ignored or only partially forgiven. I think those things will have to get patched up in the next life. I don’t think the errors we make in person-to-person relationships will just vanish without some kind of reconciliation and resolution. In the next life we are going to run into all the people who irritated us in this life. I’m not sure they won’t still be irritating in the next either, then again, they might be less irritating, we’ll see. At least that’s what I’m hoping happens when I run into my mother . . . not to mention a few abusive, misogynistic men whom I’ve managed to escape from. I’m not looking forward to running into any of these people, that’s for sure . . . but it’s gonna happen . . . you can count on it.
(151:4.1) The next day Jesus again taught the people from the boat, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while he slept, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and hastened away. And so when the young blades sprang up and later were about to bring forth fruit, there appeared also the weeds. Then the servants of this householder came and said to him: ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Whence then come these weeds?’ And he replied to his servants, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants then asked their master, ‘Would you have us go out and pluck up these weeds?’ But he answered them and said: ‘No, lest while you are gathering them up, you uproot the wheat also. Rather let them both grow together until the time of the harvest, when I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn and then gather up the wheat to be stored in my barn.'”
If we identify those who choose error or those who knowingly choose not to participate in God’s reality beyond this life, with the tares and weeds of the wheat fields, isn’t that just nature at work or the natural out working of being free-will creatures, that naturally many will not be interested in the true way of life and thereby, knowingly forfeit survival?
I know how difficult it is for people of faith, people like us, to fathom why anyone would refuse the invitation to eternal life. But it appears that it does happen, and as a part of nature, maybe it should be expected of some, or perhaps many, to reject eternal life.
(195:9.6) Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them—and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.
Many people don’t like it when demands are made of them.
(112:5.9) This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all.
(149:1.9) Many others sought healing for wholly selfish purposes. A rich widow of Tyre, with her retinue, came seeking to be healed of her infirmities, which were many; and as she followed Jesus about through Galilee, she continued to offer more and more money, as if the power of God were something to be purchased by the highest bidder. But never would she become interested in the gospel of the kingdom; it was only the cure of her physical ailments that she sought.
However many, who fail to survive, it’s not because they don’t qualify, that they’re not good enough, it’s because they’re thoroughly and naturally uninterested.
195:9.6 Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them—and with them.
196:2.9 He was not a moral skeptic; he viewed man positively, not negatively. He saw most men as weak rather than wicked, more distraught than depraved. But no matter what their status, they were all God’s children and his brethren.
Some of those who reject God in this life may still get another opportunity to see him in another light. I don’t think God holds fear, weakness and distress against people, just like he doesn’t hold ignorance, immaturity and delusion against them. It all comes down to what is really in their hearts and none of us know this for sure. Only God does and I think we should leave it all up to him.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t lock up antisocial psychopaths, nor should we be naively nice to amoral and unethical individuals. But all people have the potential to survive, and I personally leave it at that. It doesn’t mean I have to like all people (and believe me, there are a lot of people I don’t like); it does, however, mean I have to accept them as God’s children and my brethren until God decides otherwise. I’m not privy to all the influences that contribute to their decision making, such as ignorance, immaturity and delusion.
16:7.7 Man’s choosing between good and evil is influenced, not only by the keenness of his moral nature, but also by such influences as ignorance, immaturity, and delusion. A sense of proportion is also concerned in the exercise of virtue because evil may be perpetrated when the lesser is chosen in the place of the greater as a result of distortion or deception. The art of relative estimation or comparative measurement enters into the practice of the virtues of the moral realm.
After all, I myself am grossly ignorant of much that has to do with God, I am also immature and possibly delusional at times, and I don’t feel the least less loved because of it. I’m sure many of the things I think, say and do make his hair stand on end, but that doesn’t change my survivability. If Jesus told us to forgive seventy times seven, how much more will God forgive, even those who seemingly reject him now? Not that we should presume on God’s forgiveness, not at all.
So yes, soul death is possible in this life and I don’t doubt that it happens, but I sincerely believe that these things are God’s business. I also sincerely believe that he is abundantly forgiving and would never abandon a soul unless he’s made every effort and decides there is absolutely nothing left to salvage . . . a completely empty soul, morontially bankrupt. Either way, it’s up to him. But note in the quote below, even after God has abandoned the soul and its death is recorded, the angels still attend to the personality . . . so what does that say to us and what we should do?
112:3.2 1. Spiritual (soul) death. If and when mortal man has finally rejected survival, when he has been pronounced spiritually insolvent, morontially bankrupt, in the conjoint opinion of the Adjuster and the surviving seraphim, when such co-ordinate advice has been recorded on Uversa, and after the Censors and their reflective associates have verified these findings, thereupon do the rulers of Orvonton order the immediate release of the indwelling Monitor. But this release of the Adjuster in no way affects the duties of the personal or group seraphim concerned with that Adjuster-abandoned individual. This kind of death is final in its significance irrespective of the temporary continuation of the living energies of the physical and mind mechanisms. From the cosmic standpoint the mortal is already dead; the continuing life merely indicates the persistence of the material momentum of cosmic energies.
G’day all,
#24682 Bonita (and believe me, there are a lot of people I don’t like) … “and do make his hair stand on end”
… Bonita, believe me as well red those lines was so identical of my peevish frown. I can’t help laughing of those assertions. Lately, I woke-up and said “what the heck, seems like I have general animosities towards organizations (profit/non-profit, politics,socials) and persons.
Must be experiencing Truth/Realities mingle with immaturity/maturity, mercy/disdain, pardon/blame …
xoxo
André
…with the tares and weeds of the wheat fields, isn’t that just nature at work or the natural out working of being free-will creatures, that naturally many will not be interested in the true way of life and thereby, knowingly forfeit survival?
VanAmadon wrote:But it appears that it does happen, and as a part of nature, maybe it should be expected of some, or perhaps many, to reject eternal life.What *nature at work* are you talking about? With all the divine help within and impinging upon humans, it seems to me unnatural to reject God’s plans.70:9.1[Part III]Nature confers no rights on man, only life and a world in which to live it. Nature does not even confer the right to live, as might be deduced by considering what would likely happen if an unarmed man met a hungry tiger face to face in the primitive forest. Society’s prime gift to man is security.The revelators tell us religion is normal and natural to us, but optional. Think of all the help we have! It’s amazing, stunning!5:5.5 [Part I]Evolutionary religion is the mother of the science, art, and philosophy which elevated man to the level of receptivity to revealed religion, including the bestowal of Adjusters and the coming of the Spirit of Truth. The evolutionary picture of human existence begins and ends with religion, albeit very different qualities of religion, one evolutional and biological, the other revelational and periodical. And so, while religion is normal and natural to man, it is also optional. Man does not have to be religious against his will.I don’t see how someone fails to survive without serious, prolonged, and mind altering iniquity….a lifetime of it. And I don’t see how anyone remains “indifferent” once the slumber is over either….and who says they’re indifferent now? The Mansion worlds are designed for the transformation of those baby souls who lived in darkness, ignorance, fear, doubt, and material attachments. The universe of universes is operationally focused on the ascendant experience and it would seem from the text, that those who designed and operate and rule this system of ascendency can be trusted with the success of that system.
I find the worry and rhetoric of those who condemn so many of God’s children to be worrisome on two levels….first is the assumption that one mortal knows enough about that system and faith and love response and soul growth and all the related elements included, that somehow they have the power and wisdom to determine the eligibility and worth/value of other mortals…a troubling doubt reeking of assurance which might arise primarily from a sense of self superiority. But the second area of concern would be the required doubts, suspicions, and lack of trust and confidence in the rulers and ministers of this universe plan of ascension.
I may be the one who is wrong in my optimism and confidence in universe fairness, patience, and mercy….but then we should all hope I and all other optimists are right and the doubting pessimists are wrong. I find the debate of who and how many survive rather unsavory myself.
There’s a lot of circle-work to go upon the birth of the soul and if a soul itself has not perished by iniquity, (and not by lack of attention or effort or success or understanding which is not condemning or soul killing), only then would that mortal not survive IMO. This is the very purpose of the Mansion Worlds. Indeed, they have no other except rehabilitation, reorientation, and cultural immersion in the heavenly WAY. As to what we take with us that bring regret and remorse in memory….an interesting question!
47:3.7 (533.5) On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.
47:3.8 (533.6) Almost the entire experience of mansion world number one pertains to deficiency ministry. Survivors arriving on this first of the detention spheres present so many and such varied defects of creature character and deficiencies of mortal experience that the major activities of the realm are occupied with the correction and cure of these manifold legacies of the life in the flesh on the material evolutionary worlds of time and space.
47:3.9 (534.1) The sojourn on mansion world number one is designed to develop mortal survivors at least up to the status of the post-Adamic dispensation on the normal evolutionary worlds. Spiritually, of course, the mansion world students are far in advance of such a state of mere human development.
47:4.5 (535.1) Your Adjuster memory remains fully intact as you ascend the morontia life. Those mental associations that were purely animalistic and wholly material naturally perished with the physical brain, but everything in your mental life which was worth while, and which had survival value, was counterparted by the Adjuster and is retained as a part of personal memory all the way through the ascendant career. You will be conscious of all your worth-while experiences as you advance from one mansion world to another and from one section of the universe to another — even to Paradise.
47:4.6 (535.2) Though you have morontia bodies, you continue, through all seven of these worlds, to eat, drink, and rest. You partake of the morontia order of food, a kingdom of living energy unknown on the material worlds. Both food and water are fully utilized in the morontia body; there is no residual waste. Pause to consider: Mansonia number one is a very material sphere, presenting the early beginnings of the morontia regime. You are still a near human and not far removed from the limited viewpoints of mortal life, but each world discloses definite progress. From sphere to sphere you grow less material, more intellectual, and slightly more spiritual. The spiritual progress is greatest on the last three of these seven progressive worlds.
47:4.7 (535.3) Biological deficiencies were largely made up on the first mansion world. There defects in planetary experiences pertaining to sex life, family association, and parental function were either corrected or were projected for future rectification among the Material Son families on Jerusem.
47:4.8 (535.4) Mansonia number two more specifically provides for the removal of all phases of intellectual conflict and for the cure of all varieties of mental disharmony. The effort to master the significance of morontia mota, begun on the first mansion world, is here more earnestly continued. The development on mansonia number two compares with the intellectual status of the post-Magisterial Son culture of the ideal evolutionary worlds.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
