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Science & Religion – where to start?

20 posts · 8 participants · started Nov 11, 2014, 9:44 PM

nelsongParticipant
Nov 11, 2014, 9:44 PM
With this topic I would like to try to move the scientific topics away from crashing particles together and or the discovery of the spirit nature of material stuff.

(82.7) 7:1.8 All reactions of the spirit-gravity circuit of the grand universe are predictable. We recognize all actions and reactions of the omnipresent spirit of the Eternal Son and find them to be dependable. In accordance with well-known laws, we can and do measure spiritual gravity just as man attempts to compute the workings of finite physical gravity. There is an unvarying response of the Son’s spirit to all spirit things, beings, and persons, and this response is always in accordance with the degree of actuality (the qualitative degree of reality) of all such spiritual values.

As TUB makes it very clear that true religion has science, philosophy and art as its major components. There are many philosophers and artists out there that reach for and try honestly to understand spirit realities but where are the scientists? Anybody know of any who are willing to work on spiritual realities such as Spirit Gravity that is mentioned above by the authors of paper #7? They tell us that spirit-gravity is predictable, just as understanable to them as material gravity. We are not told that spirit-gravity is impossible for our scientists to define. I say this is a great place for a spiritually oriented scientific mind to begin to learn how to measure this unvarying response of the Son’s spirit to all spirit things, beings, and persons as a qualitative degree of reality. Anybody have any idea how to begin such an undertaking? Above and beyond our own personal experience and oriented to qualitative science.

When they say “all things, beings, and persons that includes us, no?
emanny3003Blocked
Nov 11, 2014, 11:20 PM
Hi nelsong,

I think that the difficulty in measuring spiritual realities is because spirit patterns only exist in relation to space. Spirit does not occupy nor contains space or displaces space. We can only measure space-time phenomena.

118:3.7 All patterns of reality occupy space on the material levels, but spirit patterns only exist in relation to space; they do not occupy or displace space, neither do they contain it. But to us the master riddle of space pertains to the pattern of an idea. When we enter the mind domain, we encounter many a puzzle. Does the pattern—the reality—of an idea occupy space? We really do not know, albeit we are sure that an idea pattern does not contain space. But it would hardly be safe to postulate that the immaterial is always nonspatial.

Manny
BonitaParticipant
Nov 12, 2014, 3:20 PM

nelsong wrote:

There are many philosophers and artists out there that reach for and try honestly to understand spirit realities but where are the scientists?

They exist. Have you ever heard of the Templeton Foundation? It’s headed by a colleague of mine from the past. A man, who incidentally, saved my son’s life twice. I think they do very good work there.

http://www.templeton.org

Here is part of their mission statement:

Our vision is derived from the late Sir John Templeton’s optimism about the possibility of acquiring “new spiritual information” and from his commitment to rigorous scientific research and related scholarship. The Foundation’s motto, “How little we know, how eager to learn,” exemplifies our support for open-minded inquiry and our hope for advancing human progress through breakthrough discoveries.
nelsongParticipant
Nov 12, 2014, 5:39 PM

Bonita wrote:

nelsong wrote:

There are many philosophers and artists out there that reach for and try honestly to understand spirit realities but where are the scientists?

They exist. Have you ever heard of the Templeton Foundation? It’s headed by a colleague of mine from the past. A man, who incidentally, saved my son’s life twice. I think they do very good work there. http://www.templeton.org Here is part of their mission statement:

Our vision is derived from the late Sir John Templeton’s optimism about the possibility of acquiring “new spiritual information” and from his commitment to rigorous scientific research and related scholarship. The Foundation’s motto, “How little we know, how eager to learn,” exemplifies our support for open-minded inquiry and our hope for advancing human progress through breakthrough discoveries.

Bonita, thank you for sharing this.

Yes, I have heard of the Templeton Foundation but I for the first time this morning have read part of their mission statement that gives me much hope. I will take time to see what this organization is up to, thanks again.

I think about things like the ability of finite humans to create something that is genuinely spiritual, like a thought or a unselfish prayer or a growing soul etc and this creation is instantly captured in the absolute gravity of the original Son. There is a mutual attraction here that is absolute. Then I think about material gravity, the earth and moon for example have a similar mutual attraction but they can fall toward eachother almost forever and never get any closer together than they are right now. If material gravity was really absolute then the big crunch is our destiny – do you believe that? Scientists say because every galixy is red shifted in the visible light spectrum the universe is expanding. Possibly not a great analogy or comparison but do you think there is anything there that could capture the interest of a spiritual scientist?

Why is it that we say it is impossible to quantify or qualify scientifically this human creation of spiritual reality? In my mind it would be one of the first things a spiritual scientist would say to someone who believes he has created a purely spiritual thought, worthy of the Son’s gravity circuit – and that is “lets prove it”. Can it be proven? What sort of facts would be necessary? If we limit our science to crashing sub atomic particles together at near light speed I think we will miss it.
BonitaParticipant
Nov 12, 2014, 6:18 PM

nelsong wrote: If material gravity was really absolute then the big crunch is our destiny – do you believe that?

NO NO NO. I do not believe in the big crunch. Don’t forget about the Dark Islands of Space.

15:6.11 We have measured the gravity pull of the luminous bodies, and we can therefore calculate the exact size and location of the dark islands of space which so effectively function to hold a given system steady in its course.

nelsong wrote: Scientists say because every galixy is red shifted in the visible light spectrum the universe is expanding. Possibly not a great analogy or comparison but do you think there is anything there that could capture the interest of a spiritual scientist?

Have you ever read any of the works of Bernard d’Espagnat?

nelsong wrote: Why is it that we say it is impossible to quantify or qualify scientifically this human creation of spiritual reality? In my mind it would be one of the first things a spiritual scientist would say to someone who believes he has created a purely spiritual thought, worthy of the Son’s gravity circuit – and that is “lets prove it”. Can it be proven? What sort of facts would be necessary? If we limit our science to crashing sub atomic particles together at near light speed I think we will miss it.

Proof of spiritual reality is only demonstrable in the external and physical world by its effects. The wind cannot be seen, but we know it is there by its effect on our sense receptors. The effect of the spirit is sensed with spiritual receptors and these receptors are part of the inner person and they are expressed as the attitude of the whole person.

103:7.14 There is a real proof of spiritual reality in the presence of the Thought Adjuster, but the validity of this presence is not demonstrable to the external world, only to the one who thus experiences the indwelling of God.

103:7.13 Reason is the act of recognizing the conclusions of consciousness with regard to the experience in and with the physical world of energy and matter. Faith is the act of recognizing the validity of spiritual consciousness—something which is incapable of other mortal proof.

101:10.6 Never can there be either scientific or logical proofs of divinity. Reason alone can never validate the values and goodnesses of religious experience.
nelsongParticipant
Nov 12, 2014, 7:18 PM
Have you ever read any of the works of Bernard d’Espagnat?

No but ill put him on my to-do list, thank you.

101:10.6 Never can there be either scientific or logical proofs of divinity. Reason alone can never validate the values and goodnesses of religious experience.

But TUB says that science is just as of a valid component to real religion as is philosophy and art, it is the Truth component that couples Beauty to Goodness IMHO. My gut says that the science they refer to is not wholly finite material, it just dont make sense if it were. It tells me we need to upgrade our methodologies.
BonitaParticipant
Nov 12, 2014, 11:31 PM

nelsong wrote:

But TUB says that science is just as of a valid component to real religion as is philosophy and art, it is the Truth component that couples Beauty to Goodness IMHO.

I don’t think the UB says that science is a component of real religion. It says that science is a component of reality. The UB says that religion is an independent realm of human response to life (5:5.2), and evolutionary religion is the mother of science, art and philosophy (5:5.5). The next quote explains the relationship between science, philosophy and religion. Science trains the mind, stabilizes thought and gets rid of stuff that doesn’t make sense or add up properly.

81:6.10 Science teaches man to speak the new language of mathematics and trains his thoughts along lines of exacting precision. And science also stabilizes philosophy through the elimination of error, while it purifies religion by the destruction of superstition.
emanny3003Blocked
Nov 13, 2014, 3:44 AM

Bonita wrote:

NO NO NO. I do not believe in the big crunch. Don’t forget about the Dark Islands of Space.

I agree. I have long wondered what causes the refections of space respirations. What makes space turn around at full expansion and then bounce back before a so called “big crunch”

I have a possible explanation. At full expansion, there is simply no more space in the reservoirs and space must return in the other direction as it must continue its primary motion. Sounds simple but makes sense.

At full contraction and before a catastrophic big crunch, the Universe reflects at unity. This one is more difficult to explain. By unity I mean when the ratio of energy to mass in the universe is one.

I have derived a more comprehensible form of E=Mc^2. This relationship was confirmed by TUB. I just modified it to conform with moving space and circular time, also confirmed by TUB. This derived equation is:

E^2/M^2 = space-time. Hyperbolic space in space motions orthogonal to circular time. Space-time is actually space/time and division is an orthogonal relationship but we write it in the form, space-time. Geometrically, only the hyperbola and the circle can relate by division.

When space-time achieves unity, it reflects because space is hyperbolic and the equation for reflection is y=1/x. This a hyperbolic curve that reflects at unity, one. Motion is logarithmic and the two logarithmic functions also reflect at unity. They are y=e^(x) and its inverse function, y=nl(x).
nelsongParticipant
Nov 15, 2014, 7:28 PM
Have you ever read any of the works of Bernard d’Espagnat?

Checked him out and ended up ordering one of his books – On Physics and Philosophy

Hope it dont go too far over my head.
tasParticipant
Nov 23, 2014, 2:13 AM

nelsong wrote:

There are many philosophers and artists out there that reach for and try honestly to understand spirit realities but where are the scientists?

I came across this lecture a few weeks ago and found it very interesting on this topic, you might like it also:

Synthesis of Science and Spirituality: The Arc of Human Destiny over Milennia

Alexander has gotten a certain amount of pop culture fame in recent years as the Harvard neurosurgeon who experienced a near death experience that changed his way of thinking from one of a materialistic reductionism to belief in God and the afterlife, but aside from that, this talk he gives to the Theosophical Society in America to me had a lot more substance to it than more typical media appearances I’ve seen of his, and it ties in to your topic here.
AnonymousInactive
Mar 4, 2022, 6:37 PM

true religion establishes enduring unity in human experience.

5:4.2 (66.6) The great and immediate service of true religion is the establishment of an enduring unity in human experience, a lasting peace and a profound assurance. With primitive man, even polytheism is a relative unification of the evolving concept of Deity; polytheism is monotheism in the making. Sooner or later, God is destined to be comprehended as the reality of values, the substance of meanings, and the life of truth.

nelsong wrote:

With this topic I would like to try to move the scientific topics away from crashing particles together and or the discovery of the spirit nature of material stuff. (82.7) 7:1.8 All reactions of the spirit-gravity circuit of the grand universe are predictable. We recognize all actions and reactions of the omnipresent spirit of the Eternal Son and find them to be dependable. In accordance with well-known laws, we can and do measure spiritual gravity just as man attempts to compute the workings of finite physical gravity. There is an unvarying response of the Son’s spirit to all spirit things, beings, and persons, and this response is always in accordance with the degree of actuality (the qualitative degree of reality) of all such spiritual values. As TUB makes it very clear that true religion has science, philosophy and art as its major components. There are many philosophers and artists out there that reach for and try honestly to understand spirit realities but where are the scientists? Anybody know of any who are willing to work on spiritual realities such as Spirit Gravity that is mentioned above by the authors of paper #7? They tell us that spirit-gravity is predictable, just as understanable to them as material gravity. We are not told that spirit-gravity is impossible for our scientists to define. I say this is a great place for a spiritually oriented scientific mind to begin to learn how to measure this unvarying response of the Son’s spirit to all spirit things, beings, and persons as a qualitative degree of reality. Anybody have any idea how to begin such an undertaking? Above and beyond our own personal experience and oriented to qualitative science. When they say “all things, beings, and persons that includes us, no?
jeanParticipant
Mar 24, 2022, 7:09 AM
Salut à tous

Je suis en train de relire l’apocalypse de Jean (la période que nous vivons s’y prête bien !) et je me demande quand même si on ne serais pas en plein dedans. Bien que ce livre soit un tantinet compliqué il n’en reste pas moins qu’il est intéressant étant donné qu’il parle du retour de Michael.

Pensez-vous qu’il y ai encore des esprits déchus qui soit libre d’influencer les décisions de certains humains, ou sont-ils vraiment tous enfermés sur le satellite No 7 du Père de Satania?

Jean
BradlyParticipant
Mar 24, 2022, 2:55 PM
Greetings Jean….

It appears (if translate is working) that you are asking if the Papers are accurate and/or believable.

The claims in the UB on the issue are quite clear. All we can verify here is that the UB says what it says and doesn’t say what it doesn’t.

Personally I do not and have never believed in any Apocalypse. It is a very primitive end of world superstition about an angry and vengeful God whose blood sacrifice of his Son evidently failed in its attempt for redemption of original sin. What a complete crock of fictional fearmongering by the priesthood for the manipulation of God’s children.

The UB confirms this opinion. And confirms that we cannot or should not blame the devil for our bad choices and immaturity or for the consequences and repercussions of such childish and selfish choices.

There are no fallen “spirits” roaming about either. Not since Michael’s gift of the Spirit of Truth and the end of rebellion. According to the Papers anyway.

John’s writings are a vast distortion of a vision he did not understand, later modified by priests and fire and brimstone preachers. You are reading about it where exactly?

Translation:

“I’m rereading John’s apocalypse (the period we’re living in lends itself well to it!) and I still wonder if we wouldn’t be right in it. Although this book is a bit complicated, the fact remains that it is interesting given that it talks about Michael’s return.

Do you think there are still fallen spirits who are free to influence the decisions of some humans, or are they really all locked up on the No. 7 satellite of the Father of Satania?”

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Mar 24, 2022, 4:33 PM
81:6.10 Science teaches man to speak the new language of mathematics and trains his thoughts along lines of exacting precision. And science also stabilizes philosophy through the elimination of error, while it purifies religion by the destruction of superstition.

The topic here is about the evolutionary process and destruction of superstition by the combined forces of science, religion, and the unifying philosophy delivered by a factual universe reality perspective. Such a perspective is achieved by insight, experience, education/knowledge, personal and epochal revelation.

The UB claims it is the 5th Epochal Revelation to our world for the very specific purpose of reducing the confusions and eliminating the errors of ignorance and primitive evolutionary superstitions and beliefs. Whether one believes that claim or the teachings in the Papers is strictly personal and cannot be proven here.

Your post above Jean touches so many pagan and Christian superstitions debunked by the UB. Apocalyptic armageddonists are certainly contradicted in many ways by the UB. It teaches we are actually one million years into an obvious evolutionary and progressive trajectory described in many different Papers in the UB, on the certain if unpredictable path to our planetary destiny of Light and Life.

The UB is a book of endless assurance of our personal connections to Deity in a friendly universe on a world known as the Shrine of Nebadon!!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Mar 24, 2022, 4:48 PM
I think your time in the Bible would be better served and rewarded by study of the teachings of the Master who taught us about God’s love and paternal affection and Divine mercy. Never once did Jesus support original sin, or the sins of our fathers, or an angry God, or human atonement, or blood sacrifice, or vengeful destruction of our world, or any such primitive superstition.

Such an unfortunate and ignorant belief invented and perpetuated by the Christian priesthood and pulpits.

Thanks for the Urantia Papers to eliminate such errors and reduce such primitive confusions.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AnonymousInactive
Mar 24, 2022, 8:00 PM

Caligastia, your apostate Planetary Prince, is still free on Urantia to prosecute his nefarious designs, but he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, neither can he draw near to their souls to tempt or corrupt them unless they really desire to be cursed with his wicked presence.

53:8.6 (610.2) The last act of Michael before leaving Urantia was to offer mercy to Caligastia and Daligastia, but they spurned his tender proffer. Caligastia, your apostate Planetary Prince, is still free on Urantia to prosecute his nefarious designs, but he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, neither can he draw near to their souls to tempt or corrupt them unless they really desire to be cursed with his wicked presence.

jean wrote:

“I’m rereading John’s apocalypse (the period we’re living in lends itself well to it!) and I still wonder if we wouldn’t be right in it. Although this book is a bit complicated, the fact remains that it is interesting given that it talks about Michael’s return. Do you think there are still fallen spirits who are free to influence the decisions of some humans, or are they really all locked up on the No. 7 satellite of the Father of Satania?”
jeanParticipant
Mar 24, 2022, 9:20 PM
Salut Bradly

Ne t’inquiète pas pour moi mon ami, je suis un lecteur assidu du LU, ma question en fait, était de savoir si il y avait encore des rebelles en liberté.

“Caligastia, votre Prince Planétaire apostat, est toujours libre sur Urantia de poursuivre ses desseins infâmes, mais il n’a absolument aucun pouvoir d’entrer dans l’esprit des hommes, il ne peut pas non plus s’approcher de leurs âmes pour les tenter ou les corrompre à moins qu’ils ne désirent vraiment être maudits avec sa présence méchante.”

Personnellement je ne crois pas non plus en une apocalypse comme décrite dans la bible, bien que les guerres peuvent y ressembler.

Jean
MaraParticipant
Mar 25, 2022, 12:15 AM

jean wrote:

Ne t’inquiète pas pour moi mon ami, je suis un lecteur assidu du LU, ma question en fait, était de savoir si il y avait encore des rebelles en liberté.

Thanks for your comments. I think you have an answer to which I will add this:

77:7.8 [Part III]

The entire group of rebel midwayers is at present held prisoner by order of the Most Highs of Edentia. No more do they roam this world on mischief bent. Regardless of the presence of the Thought Adjusters, the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth upon all flesh forever made it impossible for disloyal spirits of any sort or description ever again to invade even the most feeble of human minds. Since the day of Pentecost there never again can be such a thing as demoniacal possession.
BradlyParticipant
Mar 25, 2022, 1:19 PM
Jean – So good to hear. Translation is difficult and software lacks nuance apparently.

You posted:

“Personnellement je ne crois pas non plus en une apocalypse comme décrite dans la bible, bien que les guerres peuvent y ressembler.”

Translates to:

“Personally I also don’t believe in an apocalypse as described in the Bible, although wars can look like it.”

Me here: Yes. Nationalism is becoming more irrational. The Dalai Lama recently said “War is outdated.” Ukrainians suffer under the bootheel of a madman but the poor Russians will regret the certain consequences and repercussions of war.

Armageddonists welcome war as one of their “signs” of the return of Jesus. Simpletons and blind lemmings who refuse the Jesusonian Gospel of our global and universal family, and who deny and retard our social progress and perpetuate primitive superstition.

Our national war machine and military industrial complex in the USA are not effective to deliver peace or positive change either. Fighting over borders and ideas must be abandoned in favor of peace and the best interest of all – the greater good for the greatest number.

Perhaps climate change will unite science and religion and politics into a more unified global response to common problems and resolutions? Perhaps.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
MaraParticipant
Mar 25, 2022, 6:04 PM

Bradly wrote:

Perhaps climate change will unite science and religion and politics into a more unified global response to common problems and resolutions?

I enjoy your comments. Rather than going into climate change or war, I’d rather look at a *bigger* scope – the interrelationship of science and religion. In thinking about this I was reminded of this reference about civilizations – the *bigger* scope.

16:9.5 [Part I]

Civilizations are unstable because they are not cosmic; they are not innate in the individuals of the races. They must be nurtured by the combined contributions of the constitutive factors of man — science, morality, and religion. Civilizations come and go, but science, morality, and religion always survive the crash.

Here’s an historical bit that informs us that planetary mortals, primitives so to speak, evolve their mind derived religions (superstitions, etc.) first, before science comes along, before civilizations develop. They remind us that religion is optional. No God nor man has power to force religion – religious experience – upon a person against his will.

5:5.5 [Part I]

Evolutionary religion is the mother of the science, art, and philosophy which elevated man to the level of receptivity to revealed religion, including the bestowal of Adjusters and the coming of the Spirit of Truth. The evolutionary picture of human existence begins and ends with religion, albeit very different qualities of religion, one evolutional and biological, the other revelational and periodical. And so, while religion is normal and natural to man, it is also optional. Man does not have to be religious against his will.

Revelation helps us logically correlate religion and science – “these separate but interdependent domains of thought” that we would develop “a well-balanced philosophy of scientific stability and religious certainty.”

103:7.9 [Part III]

The science of the material world enables man to control, and to some extent dominate, his physical environment. The religion of the spiritual experience is the source of the fraternity impulse which enables men to live together in the complexities of the civilization of a scientific age. Metaphysics, but more certainly revelation, affords a common meeting ground for the discoveries of both science and religion and makes possible the human attempt logically to correlate these separate but interdependent domains of thought into a well-balanced philosophy of scientific stability and religious certainty.

I think it is fascinating to know that religion was born in the evolutionary cradle of mankind. Now and in the future will religion – as personally borne, experienced and lived by each religionist – be the overarching pursuit of everyone who longs to do the will of God. It seems to me that religion is at the beginning (our natal origin) and at the end . . . here on planet earth in the eras of light and life (the teachings of Jesus shall not fail), as well as our individual attainment-destiny on Paradise. I’m sure others might have a *bigger* scope than I do.

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