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Punishment for sinning ?

15 posts · 5 participants · started Dec 31, 2025, 3:58 PM

jerrydixonParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 3:58 PM
My impression from reading the UB is that after death, we never have to account for our sins committed on Urantia, and that there will be no punishment for those sins, nor do we have to ask God for forgiveness, as God forgives sins right after they are committed. And I surmise that is what Jesus meant when he told several people “your sins are forgiven”, not that he was now forgiving their sins, but that they had already been forgiven. Do I have that right?

I am beholden to show mercy; I must go to the rescue of the assaulted lad. 133.1 Mercy and Justice.
MaraParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 5:25 PM
I do think Jesus was forgiving them.

There is always more to know. Consider the following:

146:2.4 [Part IV]

3. By opening the human end of the channel of the God-man communication, mortals make immediately available the ever-flowing stream of divine ministry to the creatures of the worlds. When man hears God’s spirit speak within the human heart, inherent in such an experience is the fact that God simultaneously hears that man’s prayer. Even the forgiveness of sin operates in this same unerring fashion. The Father in heaven has forgiven you even before you have thought to ask him, but such forgiveness is not available in your personal religious experience until such a time as you forgive your fellow men. God’s forgiveness in fact is not conditioned upon your forgiving your fellows, but in experience it is exactly so conditioned. And this fact of the synchrony of divine and human forgiveness was thus recognized and linked together in the prayer which Jesus taught the apostles.

89:10.0 10. Forgiveness of Sin

^(984.4) ^89:10.1 Ancient man only attained consciousness of favor with God through sacrifice. Modern man must develop new techniques of achieving the self-consciousness of salvation. The consciousness of sin persists in the mortal mind, but the thought patterns of salvation therefrom have become outworn and antiquated. The reality of the spiritual need persists, but intellectual progress has destroyed the olden ways of securing peace and consolation for mind and soul.

^(984.5) ^89:10.2 Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals.

^(984.6) ^89:10.3 The sense or feeling of guilt is the consciousness of the violation of the mores; it is not necessarily sin. There is no real sin in the absence of conscious disloyalty to Deity. [My emphasis]

^(984.7) ^89:10.4 The possibility of the recognition of the sense of guilt is a badge of transcendent distinction for mankind. It does not mark man as mean but rather sets him apart as a creature of potential greatness and ever-ascending glory. Such a sense of unworthiness is the initial stimulus that should lead quickly and surely to those faith conquests which translate the mortal mind to the superb levels of moral nobility, cosmic insight, and spiritual living; thus are all the meanings of human existence changed from the temporal to the eternal, and all values are elevated from the human to the divine.

^(984.8) ^89:10.5 The confession of sin is a manful repudiation of disloyalty, but it in no wise mitigates the time-space consequences of such disloyalty. But confession — sincere recognition of the nature of sin — is essential to religious growth and spiritual progress.

^(985.1) ^89:10.6 The forgiveness of sin by Deity is the renewal of loyalty relations following a period of the human consciousness of the lapse of such relations as the consequence of conscious rebellion. The forgiveness does not have to be sought, only received as the consciousness of re-establishment of loyalty relations between the creature and the Creator. And all the loyal sons of God are happy, service-loving, and ever-progressive in the Paradise ascent.

Peter had a question about sin nad forgiveness.

159:1.4 [Part IV]

Simon Peter was the apostle in charge of the workers at Hippos, and when he heard Jesus thus speak, he asked: “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times?” And Jesus answered Peter: “Not only seven times but even to seventy times and seven. Therefore may the kingdom of heaven be likened to a certain king who ordered a financial reckoning with his stewards. And when they had begun to conduct this examination of accounts, one of his chief retainers was brought before him confessing that he owed his king ten thousand talents. Now this officer of the king’s court pleaded that hard times had come upon him, and that he did not have wherewith to pay this obligation. And so the king commanded that his property be confiscated, and that his children be sold to pay his debt. When this chief steward heard this stern decree, he fell down on his face before the king and implored him to have mercy and grant him more time, saying,’Lord, have a little more patience with me, and I will pay you all. And when the king looked upon this negligent servant and his family, he was moved with compassion. He ordered that he should be released, and that the loan should be wholly forgiven.

(etc.)
Mark KurtzParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 7:43 PM
Hello Jerry,

My impressions from the UB is the Father does forgive sins even before we ask. However, that does not mean a person has no need to change quality of relationships. A person certainly could be passed up to the Mansions, but our Guardian and others know of our life and spiritual attitudes and situations. They know what we need to continue in the Father’s plan. If we sin, know it and are still passed up to the Mansions, the teachers, Guardian and others will be sure to offer likely multiple opportunities to learn right ways for growth. There is no escaping the Father’s requirements.

A person who has one or more sins on record, might want (perhaps secretly) improvement; truly long for a better life; desire love, but has had difficulties with impaired judgement. It is the Father’s ideals that all his Sons and Teachers will try to promote loving relations to us and offer opportunities to accept. Refusing such, the Judges are not obligated to allow upward advancements. Sin is not an automatic detriment unless it is continually chosen. Knowing continuation in sin is rebellion and that can lead to all loss of ability to change. Such a person becomes devoid of value to the Father. I just cannot see that poor judgement resulting in a temporary sin is automatic blockage by our Judges for chances at Mansonia.
BradlyParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 8:16 PM

jerrydixon wrote:

My impression from reading the UB is that after death, we never have to account for our sins committed on Urantia, and that there will be no punishment for those sins, nor do we have to ask God for forgiveness, as God forgives sins right after they are committed. And I surmise that is what Jesus meant when he told several people “your sins are forgiven”, not that he was now forgiving their sins, but that they had already been forgiven. Do I have that right?

Everyone must “account” for their intentional and knowing wrong motives, intentions, priorities, strategies, tactics, choices, and acts. For sin is a poison of consequences that are never avoided. Indeed, we receive love and forgiveness only based upon our ability to receive it. Forgiveness is presumed, automatic, and without fail; but not so it’s reception.

Even now, and still, is Lucifer unable to receive forgiveness and mercy. Although both have been offered for a long, long time.

Survival of this life and mortal death is no reason for indifference to sin…or even the evils of immaturity and inexperience. The Master taught that each decision moves us closer to our spiritization and potential, or it moves us further away.

Sin is an intentional disloyalty to truth, beauty, and goodness, a betrayal of our Spirit nature and damaging to our Deity Connections.

The consequences of sin are only escaped by a conscious and sincere restoration of noble and spiritual motives. Repentance is a most interesting topic to consider here.

While God does not require our repentance for mercy and forgiveness, perhaps sinners must repent to acknowledge intentional disloyalty and betrayal of the Spirit and reorient and redirect our hearts? Perplexing.

There is always a harvest of what is sown. Mortal death and survival will not prevent or forgive the harvest of bad choices sown.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 8:56 PM
Similar to the effects and repercussions of sin, our personal immaturity and inexperience and lack of wisdom are not escaped by our morontial survival.

The psychic circles must be progressed and fusion achieved before we are considered bona fide ascenders and destiny achievers.

These achievements are not won by forgiveness, but only by progress, and experiential wisdom, and spiritization.

Or so I understand the Papers to teach.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 9:00 PM

Mara wrote:

I do think Jesus was forgiving them.

Indeed. We are all agents of mercy and forgiveness. Jesus forgave much. So must we. Are we not forgiven “AS” we forgive?

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 9:06 PM
130:1.5 (1429.1)Jesus’ last visit with Gadiah had to do with a discussion of good and evil. This young Philistine was much troubled by a feeling of injustice because of the presence of evil in the world alongside the good. He said: “How can God, if he is infinitely good, permit us to suffer the sorrows of evil; after all, who creates evil?” It was still believed by many in those days that God creates both good and evil, but Jesus never taught such error. In answering this question, Jesus said: “My brother, God is love; therefore he must be good, and his goodness is so great and real that it cannot contain the small and unreal things of evil. God is so positively good that there is absolutely no place in him for negative evil. Evil is the immature choosing and the unthinking misstep of those who are resistant to goodness, rejectful of beauty, and disloyal to truth. Evil is only the misadaptation of immaturity or the disruptive and distorting influence of ignorance. Evil is the inevitable darkness which follows upon the heels of the unwise rejection of light. Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin.

130:1.6 (1429.2)“Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest.” Gadiah was fully satisfied with Jesus’ answer to his question after their subsequent discussion had made clear to his mind the real meaning of these momentous statements.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 9:13 PM
The Master teaches Thomas:

148:4.3 (1660.2) “Evil is the unconscious or unintended transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Evil is likewise the measure of the imperfectness of obedience to the Father’s will.

148:4.4 (1660.3) “Sin is the conscious, knowing, and deliberate transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Sin is the measure of unwillingness to be divinely led and spiritually directed.

148:4.5 (1660.4) “Iniquity is the willful, determined, and persistent transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Iniquity is the measure of the continued rejection of the Father’s loving plan of personality survival and the Sons’ merciful ministry of salvation.

148:4.6 (1660.5)“By nature, before the rebirth of the spirit, mortal man is subject to inherent evil tendencies, but such natural imperfections of behavior are neither sin nor iniquity. Mortal man is just beginning his long ascent to the perfection of the Father in Paradise. To be imperfect or partial in natural endowment is not sinful. Man is indeed subject to evil, but he is in no sense the child of the evil one unless he has knowingly and deliberately chosen the paths of sin and the life of iniquity. Evil is inherent in the natural order of this world, but sin is an attitude of conscious rebellion which was brought to this world by those who fell from spiritual light into gross darkness.

148:4.7 (1660.6)“You are confused, Thomas, by the doctrines of the Greeks and the errors of the Persians. You do not understand the relationships of evil and sin because you view mankind as beginning on earth with a perfect Adam and rapidly degenerating, through sin, to man’s present deplorable estate. But why do you refuse to comprehend the meaning of the record which discloses how Cain, the son of Adam, went over into the land of Nod and there got himself a wife? And why do you refuse to interpret the meaning of the record which portrays the sons of God finding wives for themselves among the daughters of men?

148:4.8 (1660.7) “Men are, indeed, by nature evil, but not necessarily sinful. The new birth—the baptism of the spirit—is essential to deliverance from evil and necessary for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, but none of this detracts from the fact that man is the son of God. Neither does this inherent presence of potential evil mean that man is in some mysterious way estranged from the Father in heaven so that, as an alien, foreigner, or stepchild, he must in some manner seek for legal adoption by the Father. All such notions are born, first, of your misunderstanding of the Father and, second, of your ignorance of the origin, nature, and destiny of man.

148:4.9 (1660.8)“The Greeks and others have taught you that man is descending from godly perfection steadily down toward oblivion or destruction; I have come to show that man, by entrance into the kingdom, is ascending certainly and surely up to God and divine perfection. Any being who in any manner falls short of the divine and spiritual ideals of the eternal Father’s will is potentially evil, but such beings are in no sense sinful, much less iniquitous.

148:4.10 (1661.1)“Thomas, have you not read about this in the Scriptures, where it is written: ‘You are the children of the Lord your God.’ ‘I will be his Father and he shall be my son.’ ‘I have chosen him to be my son—I will be his Father.’ ‘Bring my sons from far and my daughters from the ends of the earth; even every one who is called by my name, for I have created them for my glory.’ ‘You are the sons of the living God.’ ‘They who have the spirit of God are indeed the sons of God.’ While there is a material part of the human father in the natural child, there is a spiritual part of the heavenly Father in every faith son of the kingdom.”

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Dec 31, 2025, 9:38 PM
“Punishment for sinning?”

No being, not God or any Deity or Celestials, “punishes” any other being.

The consequences of harvesting what is sown is the punishment. Those are self inflicted consequences, inherent within the choices made, the motivation for the choices made, and the lack of experiential wisdom applied.

The question itself is a misdirected discombobulation of reality I think. Are consequences a form of punishment? “Punishment” would seem to presume/require someone who punishes another. Doesn’t work that way.

A great topic Jerry! Thank you.

Here’s a link to a topic here on repentance that may offer related text and concepts to consider.

https://urassoc.arko.nyc/forums/topic/what-about-repentance/

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Jan 2, 2026, 6:29 PM
“Punishment for sinning?”

So far as I can tell, there are no UB examples of “punishment” to be found. Humans punish one another. Primarily due to our primitive inexperience and inability and immaturity and self importance and the reactionary simplicity of personal punishment as a substitute for example and nurturing patience.

Socially, the whole is theoretically protected by punishing the social misbehavior of the few social deviants, but is more often enforced without true and fair justice as any result (or even ideal). It’s merely or most often social control over those who are perceived as threats to the ruling class by isolation or elimination of so called misfits and enemies of the state.

I think effective punishment is a mystery, if it exists at all. Fairness and wisdom are still a rather rare form of enlightenment by which people agree to and adhere to the Golden Rule, or face consequences which will lead to the personal embrace of those ethics and morals and social mores which express such idealistic aspirations.

I think we are truly and only punished by being deprived of the fruits of the Spirit and being delayed in our spiritual progress by those choices we make and the motives we have and priorities we embrace which cause our own suffering.

Whether the evil of error, or selfishness, or immaturity, or inexperience, or miscalculation or by the intentionality of sin and iniquity, we suffer the consequences and results of imperfection. By such suffering, it is intended and expected that we will learn to have better motives, intentions, priorities, strategies, tactics, timing, and experiential wisdom!!!!

If we do not, we continue to suffer until we do.

As best I can tell from the Papers, we are punished only by the results of our personal choices in the morontial and spiritual levels of reality.

Our so called “punishment” is but self inflicted suffering. And there is no other kind. Even the so called universe executioners only make final judgment as to the hopelessness of rehabilitation and the end of the extension of nearly endless and inexhaustible mercy credits. Neither do even they punish anyone.

Or so I understand the Papers to teach.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Jan 2, 2026, 8:41 PM

Bradly wrote:

Mara wrote:

I do think Jesus was forgiving them.

Indeed. We are all agents of mercy and forgiveness. Jesus forgave much. So must we. Are we not forgiven “AS” we forgive?

Further research indicates that Jesus was personally forgiving toward those who abused or hurt him or showed disloyalty, etc., but did also often simply advise folks of God’s forgiving nature.

What is the nature of forgiveness?

We cannot hurt God. We cannot cause Deity to suffer. But we certainly do hurt each other. God forgives by Divine nature. We must choose to be forgiving…until spiritized sufficiently for it to also become our nature. Jesus was a generous and kind and forgiving person already, as the Son of Man, even before exhibiting his Divine nature later as the Son of God.

Forgiveness serves those who forgive far more than those who are forgiven I think. Which is why we receive forgiveness AS we forgive others.

Such a fascinating and illuminating topic!!!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Jan 3, 2026, 3:53 AM
One might say we are rewarded by the fruits of the Spirit and we are punished by their absence.

The fruits of the Spirit reflect our personal response to our Deity Connections and their absence demonstrates the lack thereof.

Therefore, our “punishment for sinning” is that absence and lack of those fruits, which delivers our suffering and that unrelenting thirst and unrequited yearn which only the Spirit can satisfy.

The presence or absence of the Spirit is due solely to our personal receptivity and response, reflected within and by our motives, and our intentions and priorities, and our choices thereof and thereby.

Or such is my understanding.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
MaraParticipant
Jan 3, 2026, 5:47 AM

Bradly wrote:

Even the so called universe executioners only make final judgment as to the hopelessness of rehabilitation and the end of the extension of nearly endless and inexhaustible mercy credits. Neither do even they punish anyone.

If there is life, there is hope.

2:3.2 […] True, even in the justice of reaping the harvest of wrongdoing, this divine justice is always tempered with mercy. Infinite wisdom is the eternal arbiter which determines the proportions of justice and mercy which shall be meted out in any given circumstance. The greatest punishment (in reality an inevitable consequence) for wrongdoing and deliberate rebellion against the government of God is loss of existence as an individual subject of that government. The final result of wholehearted sin is annihilation. In the last analysis, such sin-identified individuals have destroyed themselves by becoming wholly unreal through their embrace of iniquity. The factual disappearance of such a creature is, however, always delayed until the ordained order of justice current in that universe has been fully complied with.

Recall what you know of the adjudication of the Satania rebellion which is in court now. It is astounding to read this:

54:3.2 [Part II]

Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty — the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil — a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual’s universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself. [my emphasis]

By my way of thinking, the sinner’s approval of the penalty of annihilation is not a punishment. God isn’t in the punishment business.

Judas did a horrific thing. The brigand nailed to a cross near Jesus was lawfully condemned to death. Jesus heard his faith confession.

187:4.2 [Part IV]

The Master had time amidst the pangs of mortal death to listen to the faith confession of the believing brigand. When this thief reached out for salvation, he found deliverance.
rhermenParticipant
Jan 5, 2026, 2:02 PM
So many times, and in so many ways, our Heavenly Parents have told us “Don’t touch that! IT’S HOT!” But the very young don’t always do as they’ve been told. They will touch “it” anyway and get burned. Some children blame their pain of disobedience on their parents. Such children may never learn. Other children realize their pain is their own fault. These children have discovered the beginning of wisdom. Heavenly Parents can be divinely indulgent with their children who are willing to learn from their mistakes. But for those few who are unwilling, no amount of divine indulgence will suffice.

Anyone with a mind has an opinion and that opinion is a reflection of that mind.
BradlyParticipant
Jan 5, 2026, 8:32 PM
And yet…no one escapes the accountability of their consequences regardless of parental forgiveness or indulgence. To your original question, death and our morontial survival does not relieve us of the consequences of our choices while living the material life of birth-origin. We progress or regress according to our motives, intentions, priorities, and choices.

We arrive on the Mansion Worlds where and as we departed the planet of origin relative to spiritization and enlightenment. Neither are we then relieved of the burden and accountability for our choices.

This is a critical distinction between the heavenly abode described to me as a child and the eternal adventure of progressive wisdom and endless karmic accountability described in the Papers.

Thanks again for such an important question and discussion.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

Reply on the current forum

Punishment for sinning ?

89:10.0 10. Forgiveness of Sin