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Problem 1: Lucifer Rebellion

13 posts · 5 participants · started Dec 16, 2016, 3:05 PM

ProbingOmegaParticipant
Dec 16, 2016, 3:05 PM
The Urantia Book elevates Lucifer to a spiritual status that is not reflected in the Bible. It has been an erroneous teaching in the church for a very long time that it was Lucifer — not Satan — that was cast out from Heaven with his angels.

QUESTION: Does anyone wish to discuss this?

… Documentation …

The Bible clearly states that Lucifer was a man, the king of Babylon.

“They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms:” Isaiah 14:16 (KJV)

The bible does not cross-reference Lucifer to either Satan, the devil, the serpent or the dragon. The Bible does state clearly that Satan, the devil, the serpent and the dragon are one and the same entity.

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Rev 12:9 (KJV)

“And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,” Rev 20:2 (KJV)

The Bible does cross-reference Lucifer to Jesus by use of the name, “Daystar or Day-star”.

“How have you fallen from heaven, O light-bringer and daystar, son of the morning! How you have been cut down to the ground, you who weakened and laid low the nations [O blasphemous, satanic king of Babylon!]” Isaiah 14:12 (AMP)

“We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:” 2 Peter 1:19 (KJV)

In the Bible, Jesus is called:
*Day star
Bright and morning star

In the Bible, The King of Babylon is called:
Light-bringer (AMP)
*Daystar (AMP)
*Day-star (ASV)
Morning star (NIV)
Son of the dawn (NIV)
Son of the morning (KJV, ASV)

Thank you,
BradlyParticipant
Dec 16, 2016, 6:26 PM
While a long time student of the bible, I am no biblical scholar. My readings of the Papers lead me to understand that there is much in the Bible that is…less than accurate….especially so when compared to the historical presentations in the UB. The list of such issues of difference, conflict, and contradiction would be very long indeed. However, the Bible is quoted with some frequency and there is much to be embraced as evidence of the evolution of many religious concepts from the teachings of the Sage of Salem to those of the Creator Son.

The Papers claim to be a factual presentation of history, the creations of time and space, the First Source and Center, Paradise, and all the creatures and personalities created and born throughout the Universe of universes.

The biblical presentations are filled with errors – some by the author(s) limited abilities to communicate their insights and experiences, and many by translation and editing, and many more by the simple passage of time during eras of oral traditions where something that was once far more factual becomes fable due to time. The UB is very helpful in a study of all those and helps re-energize the Bible for many UB students.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
MaraParticipant
Dec 16, 2016, 6:53 PM
At first glance I grasp “the problem” which is, in a few words, the problem of putting new wine into old wineskins. Or debating the Bible version of personages mentioned in the Bible with the expanded and explicable versions of such personages as described in The Urantia Book. Don’t you think more information about such personages as Lucifer and Satan and Beelzebub add insight into the purposes and plans of God, our Heavenly Father? I do. Inquiring minds want to know more than what the Bible offers, and the Bible offers much, very much. But over the early centuries the text has been altered by planned or accidental additions of marginalia to the text by the copyists who were making new copies of the books. And didn’t the Council of Nicaea in the 4th Century affect what went into the Bible? I m not a Bible scholar either, but I do know a thing or 2.

I look forward to more discussion on your topic, as we probe the alpha and omega.

Cheers!
BonitaParticipant
Dec 16, 2016, 7:21 PM
Well said Bradly. I suppose it comes down to what you feel most comfortable with. Given the choice, I personally find TUB more reliable, more logical, and thus, more satisfying than any other source of facts and insights. Many fail to recognize the fact that the Bible is an artful combination of myth, folklore, prophetic musings, descriptions of personal religious experiences, glorified history, dreams, aspirations and fears. It is a journal of the human religious impulse within a certain race of people which has been translated over and over again throughout history. Obviously, anything written by humans is potentially rife with confusion. And that is what we see here with this topic. It is not possible to perfectly line up TUB with the Bible and vice versa. The Bible is written over a few millennia by many different humans from different periods of history who relied mostly on word of mouth. In contrast, TUB is written over a few decades by a commission of celestials who have a viewpoint which is all inclusive of the full history of the entire planet, all races and all peoples, not to mention an understanding of the source, the origin and destiny of creation.

Having said that, and having made it obvious that I think in any “problem” of human understanding, the Bible is not as reliable as TUB, I’ll add the following. The pages in TUB reveal to us that Jesus/Michael is not the Bright and Morning Star. The Bright and Morning Star is his firstborn son, Gabriel. Obviously, no writer in the Bible was aware that before Michael, our Creator Son, incarnated as Jesus, he had sons. But now we know . . . and that’s a good thing.

33:4.1 The Bright and Morning Star is the personalization of the first concept of identity and ideal of personality conceived by the Creator Son and the local universe manifestation of the Infinite Spirit. Going back to the early days of the local universe, before the union of the Creator Son and the Mother Spirit in the bonds of creative association, back to the times before the beginning of the creation of their versatile family of sons and daughters, the first conjoint act of this early and free association of these two divine persons results in the creation of the highest spirit personality of the Son and the Spirit, the Bright and Morning Star.

Another thing we know because of TUB is that Lucifer and Satan were never cast out of heaven. In fact, they are still alive in heaven. They are incarcerated in the system prison worlds which curtails their freewill, but they are still in heaven. They may have fallen from grace, but they were not cast out, and they fell of their own accord. No writer in the Bible had that information.

45:1.11 As a sojourner on the seventh mansion world, you have access to the seventh transition world, the sphere of the Universal Father, and are also permitted to visit the Satania prison worlds surrounding this planet, whereon are now confined Lucifer and the majority of those personalities who followed him in rebellion against Michael.

53:9.4 Satan is now unqualifiedly detained on the Jerusem prison worlds.

Also, because of TUB, we know that the people of this world have been confused by these various “fallen” personalities, often mixing them up with one another. The so-called devil is actually Caligastia, our dethroned Planetary Prince. No one in the Bible ever wrote of a Planetary Prince and that’s because that information had been forgotten over the hundreds of thousands of human history, which makes the Bible incomplete.

53:1.4 The “devil” is none other than Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks. At the time Michael was on Urantia in the flesh, Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia were leagued together to effect the miscarriage of his bestowal mission. But they signally failed.
AnonymousInactive
Dec 20, 2016, 9:07 PM

Bonita wrote:

No one in the Bible ever wrote of a Planetary Prince and that’s because that information had been forgotten over the hundreds of thousands of human history, which makes the Bible incomplete.

Even the UB indicates that the Bible makes mention of a “Planetary Prince” where in the Bible it has been noted as “Prince of this World”.

Where it is not uncommon to think that this “World” is also a “Planet”.

“John 12:31 — Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

“John 14:30 — Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.”

“John 16:11 — Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

It is true that the Bible is incomplete, where to find what has been omitted, one would have to go elsewhere to find answers to that which was abridged, but to make blank statements before one actually researches a claim shows a mind which has closed itself to possibilities, which are found elsewhere. One must just be willing to look.

(610.1) 53:8.5 Caligastia was recognized by the Son of Man as the technical Prince of Urantia up to near the time of his death. Said Jesus: “Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast down.” And then still nearer the completion of his lifework he announced, “The prince of this world is judged.” And it is this same dethroned and discredited Prince who was once termed “God of Urantia.”

(1512.5) 136:3.1 Jesus had endured the great temptation of his mortal bestowal before his baptism when he had been wet with the dews of Mount Hermon for six weeks. There on Mount Hermon, as an unaided mortal of the realm, he had met and defeated the Urantia pretender, Caligastia, the prince of this world. That eventful day, on the universe records, Jesus of Nazareth had become the Planetary Prince of Urantia. And this Prince of Urantia, so soon to be proclaimed supreme Sovereign of Nebadon, now went into forty days of retirement to formulate the plans and determine upon the technique of proclaiming the new kingdom of God in the hearts of men.

(1904.3) 174:5.12 Then Jesus continued to speak: “All this has not happened for my sake but for yours. I know of a certainty that the Father will receive me and accept my mission in your behalf, but it is needful that you be encouraged and be made ready for the fiery trial which is just ahead. Let me assure you that victory shall eventually crown our united efforts to enlighten the world and liberate mankind. The old order is bringing itself to judgment; the Prince of this world I have cast down; and all men shall become free by the light of the spirit which I will pour out upon all flesh after I have ascended to my Father in heaven.

There are other mentions of the “Prince” in the Old Testament, but they are less noticeable to non-scholars of the Bible, so it would seem that to be a true religionist, one must accept all religions to have some value.
BonitaParticipant
Dec 21, 2016, 5:50 PM
BIAS ALERT: Jesus revealed there is a prince of this world, not the human John who otherwise would not have known of his existence. John is merely repeating Jesus’ words and there is no indication he knows who or what the Planetary Prince really is. Hence, the birth of many confusional ideologies.

John 12:27-33

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This he said, signifying what death he should die.

John 14:23-31

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John 16:1-12

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
AnonymousInactive
Dec 21, 2016, 6:31 PM
It was the belief of those who saw what Jesus did or performed by healing those who were considered to be possessed by devils, where their belief that there was a “prince of the devils” and they associated Jesus with this prince, therefore Jesus’ mention of His association with this prince.

Matthew 12:24 Context

21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

Matthew 9:34 Context

31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.

32 As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.

33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

So, based on the narrations within the UB, there was an indirect association between “the Urantia pretender, Caligastia, the prince of this world”, and Jesus who literally took Caligastia’s place, who was deemed a “pretender”, but a pretender of who or what?

Even though there were many who believed Jesus to be who He claimed to be, there were many who thought that He was the agent of the devil of this world, where ultimately was the reasoning behind Jesus’ crucifixion and death, because some thought Him to be the devil.

Mark 3:22 Context

19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread.

21 And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
AnonymousInactive
Dec 21, 2016, 9:23 PM

ProbingOmega wrote:

The Bible does cross-reference Lucifer to Jesus by use of the name, “Daystar or Day-star”.

“How have you fallen from heaven, O light-bringer and daystar, son of the morning! How you have been cut down to the ground, you who weakened and laid low the nations [O blasphemous, satanic king of Babylon!]” Isaiah 14:12 (AMP)

“We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:” 2 Peter 1:19 (KJV)

In the Bible, Jesus is called:

*Day star

Bright and morning star

ProbingOmega: it might seem that your intermixing of Biblical Version translations may be an issue here where when one uses one version and compares its translation of text with another, there will be differences that might create confusion. That’s why I prefer to use just one version the “http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/“, which includes the 1611, original translation and also its “apocrypha“.

With your presentation above of the version from “Isaiah 14:12 (AMP)” it differs from the King James Version of the same, see below:

Isaiah 14:12-13 Context

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Where in this case,”O Lucifer” is the “son of the morning”, where “son of the morning has a dual reference, when we use TUB with its context, as being the Archangel “Gabriel”, who is the first created being of Micheal and the Holy Spirit, for this local universe, and would be the head over all other Angels/Spirit beings, and also noted as “morning star”, then if Lucifer was a son of the morning, or Gabriel, it would be justified that he alone could bring a case against Lucifer, as noted in the UB. Also, being a reference to “dawn”, the first appearance of light in the morning, where “dawn” in Hebrew can be translated to “bayonet”, Gabriel would be the most likely reference in the Book of Revelation, to the “twoedged sword”, where throughout the Bible, in some cases where “sword” is used may be a reference to Gabriel.

Revelation 2:28 Context

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Where in the verse above, being the Revelation of Jesus, and it is His narration, it would be unlikely that He would give the “power over the nations:” and “give him the morning star”, where if the morning star was Jesus, would not make much sense. Therefore, I must disagree with your assessment from above, where it would make more sense that the power of Gabriel, could be given in this case.

Also as mentioned above in “Isaiah 14:12” – Lucifer, was mentioned to have the power to “weaken the nations” after his fall.

Revelation 9:1 Context

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Isaiah 13:10 Context

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

(2064.3) 194:3.11 Pentecost, with its spiritual endowment, was designed forever to loose the religion of the Master from all dependence upon physical force; the teachers of this new religion are now equipped with spiritual weapons. They are to go out to conquer the world with unfailing forgiveness, matchless good will, and abounding love. They are equipped to overcome evil with good, to vanquish hate by love, to destroy fear with a courageous and living faith in truth. Jesus had already taught his followers that his religion was never passive; always were his disciples to be active and positive in their ministry of mercy and in their manifestations of love. No longer did these believers look upon Yahweh as “the Lord of Hosts.” They now regarded the eternal Deity as the “God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.” They made that progress, at least, even if they did in some measure fail fully to grasp the truth that God is also the spiritual Father of every individual,.
BonitaParticipant
Dec 21, 2016, 11:02 PM
POPPYCOCK ALERT: There were several reasons behind Jesus’ crucifixion, but being the agent of the devil was never one of them. The formal charges were:

184:5.3-5

1. That he was a perverter of the Jewish nation; he deceived the people and incited them to rebellion.

2. That he taught the people to refuse to pay tribute to Caesar.

3. That, by claiming to be a king and the founder of a new sort of kingdom, he incited treason against the emperor.
AnonymousInactive
Dec 21, 2016, 11:51 PM

Bonita wrote:

There were several reasons behind Jesus’ crucifixion, but being the agent of the devil was never one of them. The formal charges were:

What you sighted, when reviewed, was specific to what the Roman law would consider worthy of a death sentence. But as is mentioned in the same section, that it was “blasphemy” which was Jesus’ real crime as they saw it but, knew that the Romans would not consider a religious braking of law to warrant a death sentence, being that they would have the power to put Jesus to death but, this action would have fallen on their own heads.

(1985.2) 184:5.1 At five-thirty o’clock the court reassembled, and Jesus was led into the adjoining room, where John was waiting. Here the Roman soldier and the temple guards watched over Jesus while the court began the formulation of the charges which were to be presented to Pilate. Annas made it clear to his associates that the charge of blasphemy would carry no weight with Pilate. Judas was present during this second meeting of the court, but he gave no testimony.

1985.8) 184:5.7 The only point the court could have consistently judged him on was that of blasphemy, and that would have rested entirely on his own testimony. Even concerning blasphemy, they failed to cast a formal ballot for the death sentence.

Where “blasphemy” held a severe punishment, where being that Jesus did not testify on His own behalf, most of these charges came from second hand witnesses, thereby requiring a statement from the accused.

Blasphemy —

1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.

2. Judaism.

(a) an act of cursing or reviling God.
(b) pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.

3. Theology. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

4. irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

If the spies who witnessed what was presented in the Biblical narrations, as mentioned, they would require Jesus to present this type of evidence in front of the court.

Besides, my presentations above where Bible reference, which was used, to be more specific to the context of this topic. Not to discredit the UB, but to associate the Bible, even though being written and translated in different styles, that its content can show different views by their readership, and must be understood if UB-er’s are to understand what being a religionist can expect, from Biblical scholars.

(1713.3) 153:4.1 In the midst of the discussions of this after meeting, one of the Pharisees from Jerusalem brought to Jesus a distraught youth who was possessed of an unruly and rebellious spirit. Leading this demented lad up to Jesus, he said: “What can you do for such affliction as this? Can you cast out devils?” And when the Master looked upon the youth, he was moved with compassion and, beckoning for the lad to come to him, took him by the hand and said: “You know who I am; come out of him; and I charge one of your loyal fellows to see that you do not return.” And immediately the lad was normal and in his right mind. And this is the first case where Jesus really cast an “evil spirit” out of a human being. All of the previous cases were only supposed possession of the devil; but this was a genuine case of demoniac possession, even such as sometimes occurred in those days and right up to the day of Pentecost, when the Master’s spirit was poured out upon all flesh, making it forever impossible for these few celestial rebels to take such advantage of certain unstable types of human beings.

(1764.3) 159:2.1 Jesus went over to Gamala to visit John and those who worked with him at that place. That evening, after the session of questions and answers, John said to Jesus: “Master, yesterday I went over to Ashtaroth to see a man who was teaching in your name and even claiming to be able to cast out devils. Now this fellow had never been with us, neither does he follow after us; therefore I forbade him to do such things.” Then said Jesus: “Forbid him not. Do you not perceive that this gospel of the kingdom shall presently be proclaimed in all the world? How can you expect that all who will believe the gospel shall be subject to your direction? Rejoice that already our teaching has begun to manifest itself beyond the bounds of our personal influence. Do you not see, John, that those who profess to do great works in my name must eventually support our cause? They certainly will not be quick to speak evil of me. My son, in matters of this sort it would be better for you to reckon that he who is not against us is for us. In the generations to come many who are not wholly worthy will do many strange things in my name, but I will not forbid them. I tell you that, even when a cup of cold water is given to a thirsty soul, the Father’s messengers shall ever make record of such a service of love.”

(1713.1) 153:3.6 The Pharisaic commissioners of the Jerusalem Sanhedrin were now almost convinced that Jesus must be apprehended on a charge of blasphemy or on one of flouting the sacred law of the Jews; wherefore their efforts to involve him in the discussion of, and possible attack upon, some of the traditions of the elders, or so-called oral laws of the nation. No matter how scarce water might be, these traditionally enslaved Jews would never fail to go through with the required ceremonial washing of the hands before every meal. It was their belief that “it is better to die than to transgress the commandments of the elders.” The spies asked this question because it had been reported that Jesus had said, “Salvation is a matter of clean hearts rather than of clean hands.” But such beliefs, when they once become a part of one’s religion, are hard to get away from. Even many years after this day the Apostle Peter was still held in the bondage of fear to many of these traditions about things clean and unclean, only being finally delivered by experiencing an extraordinary and vivid dream. All of this can the better be understood when it is recalled that these Jews looked upon eating with unwashed hands in the same light as commerce with a harlot, and both were equally punishable by excommunication.

If the authors of the UB did not deem it of value, why present in the UB?

(1714.2) 153:4.3 Then said Jesus: “How can Satan cast out Satan? A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand; if a house be divided against itself, it is soon brought to desolation. Can a city withstand a siege if it is not united? If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? But you should know that no one can enter into the house of a strong man and despoil his goods except he first overpower and bind that strong man. And so, if I by the power of Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges. But if I, by the spirit of God, cast out devils, then has the kingdom of God truly come upon you. If you were not blinded by prejudice and misled by fear and pride, you would easily perceive that one who is greater than devils stands in your midst. You compel me to declare that he who is not with me is against me, while he who gathers not with me scatters abroad. Let me utter a solemn warning to you who would presume, with your eyes open and with premeditated malice, knowingly to ascribe the works of God to the doings of devils! Verily, verily, I say to you, all your sins shall be forgiven, even all of your blasphemies, but whosoever shall blaspheme against God with deliberation and wicked intention shall never obtain forgiveness. Since such persistent workers of iniquity will never seek nor receive forgiveness, they are guilty of the sin of eternally rejecting divine forgiveness.

(1714.3) 153:4.4 “Many of you have this day come to the parting of the ways; you have come to a beginning of the making of the inevitable choice between the will of the Father and the self-chosen ways of darkness. And as you now choose, so shall you eventually be. You must either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else will the tree become corrupt and its fruit corrupt. I declare that in my Father’s eternal kingdom the tree is known by its fruits. But some of you who are as vipers, how can you, having already chosen evil, bring forth good fruits? After all, out of the abundance of the evil in your hearts your mouths speak.”
BonitaParticipant
Dec 22, 2016, 1:02 AM
WHAT’S REALLY IN TUB:

The Sadducees, who tried Jesus, did not believe in the devil. They also did not believe in the resurrection, angels or demons. The Sadducees were mostly a political religious party concerned with wealth and power. 137:7.7 The Sadducees consisted of the priesthood and certain wealthy Jews. They were not such sticklers for the details of law enforcement. 167:7.1 Nathaniel finally asked the Master this question: “Seeing that the high priest is a Sadducee, and since the Sadducees do not believe in angels, what shall we teach the people regarding the heavenly ministers?”

We know why the Sadducees wanted Jesus arrested. They feared involvement with the Roman authorities, he messed with their revenues and he threatened their authority: 175:4.4-7 The Sadducees, who now controlled and dominated the Sanhedrin, were desirous of making away with Jesus for the following reasons: 1. They feared that the increased popular favor with which the multitude regarded him threatened to endanger the existence of the Jewish nation by possible involvement with the Roman authorities. 2. His zeal for temple reform struck directly at their revenues; the cleansing of the temple affected their pocketbooks. 3. They felt themselves responsible for the preservation of social order, and they feared the consequences of the further spread of Jesus’ strange and new doctrine of the brotherhood of man.

We also know why some Pharisees wanted Jesus arrested. They feared his attack on tradition and disregard for ceremonial laws, that he was usurping them as teachers, and that he claimed God was his Father: 175:4.8-12 The Pharisees had different motives for wanting to see Jesus put to death. They feared him because: 1. He was arrayed in telling opposition to their traditional hold upon the people. The Pharisees were ultraconservative, and they bitterly resented these supposedly radical attacks upon their vested prestige as religious teachers. 2. They held that Jesus was a lawbreaker; that he had shown utter disregard for the Sabbath and numerous other legal and ceremonial requirements. 3. They charged him with blasphemy because he alluded to God as his Father. 4. And now were they thoroughly angry with him because of his last discourse of bitter denunciation which he had this day delivered in the temple as the concluding portion of his farewell address.

The Sanhedrin court that tried Jesus was made up of both Pharisees and Sadducees, but it was the Sadducees who were the chief priests. It was the Sadducees who attended the trial of Jesus who were hellbent on vengeance for his perceived threat to their wealth and power: 184:3.3 How these chief priests, scribes, Sadducees, and some of the Pharisees flattered themselves that Jesus, the disturber of their position and the challenger of their authority, was now securely in their hands! And they were resolved that he should never live to escape their vengeful clutches.

The Sanhedrin consisted of mostly Sadducees: 173:2.8 But the cleansing of the temple had brought the Sadducees over to the side of the Pharisees in perfecting the plan to destroy Jesus. And the Sadducees now represented a majority of the Sanhedrin.

We know that Caiaphas was the son-in-law of Annas, the former high priest. We also know that Annas had a self-interest in rounding up Jesus: 184:01 The former high priest desired to maintain his prestige as the chief ecclesiastical authority of the Jews.

Another thing we know is that Annas was the most powerful person in all Jewry, and he wanted it to stay that way: 184:1.1 Annas, enriched by the temple revenues, his son-in-law the acting high priest, and with his relations to the Roman authorities, was indeed the most powerful single individual in all Jewry. He was a suave and politic planner and plotter.

Furthermore, Annas did not want the Pharisees to have much involvement in the trial because they tended to be more sympathetic with Jesus’ teachings: 184:1.1 Annas wanted to make sure that the Master’s trial was kept in the hands of the Sadducees; he feared the possible sympathy of some of the Pharisees, seeing that practically all of those members of the Sanhedrin who had espoused the cause of Jesus were Pharisees.

Another thing we know is that Jesus really upset Annas with that money-changer hoopla because it threatened his wealth and power: 184:1.3 When Jesus was young, Annas had taken a great interest in him, but now his revenues were threatened by what Jesus had so recently done in driving the money-changers and other commercial traders out of the temple. This act had aroused the enmity of the former high priest far more than had Jesus’ teachings.

As you can see, there is absolutely no mention of the devil, or “agent of the devil” anywhere. And it would be unlikely since the Saduccees did not believe in demons.

Finally, blasphemy is not synonymous with being an “agent of the devil”. Blasphemy is sacrilegious speech. Sacrilege is not necessarily satanic. It simply means any misuse of the sacred. Soooooo, Jesus was not crucified because he was an “agent of the devil.”
AnonymousInactive
Dec 22, 2016, 2:08 AM

Bonita wrote:

As you can see, there is absolutely no mention of the devil, or “agent of the devil” anywhere. And it would be unlikely since the Saduccees did not believe in demons.

You can twist your word or mine as much as you wish, and if you look back on where I used this phrase, then you might understand that I indicated that some thought this. The way you twist your words, seems to me that you assume that I believe this to be true, but that’s on you, and the way you must think about anyone who may not see things your way? That’s your prerogative, and I cannot argue with your opinion. However, look at the following from the UB:

(1850.3) 169:0.3 The Pharisees and the chief priests had begun to formulate their charges and to crystallize their accusations. They objected to the Master’s teachings on these grounds:

(1850.4) 169:0.4 1. He is a friend of publicans and sinners; he receives the ungodly and even eats with them.
(1850.5) 169:0.5 2. He is a blasphemer; he talks about God as being his Father and thinks he is equal with God.
(1850.6) 169:0.6 3. He is a lawbreaker. He heals disease on the Sabbath and in many other ways flouts the sacred law of Israel.
(1850.7) 169:0.7 4. He is in league with devils. He works wonders and does seeming miracles by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of devils.

So based on the UB, contrary to your beliefs, which you are entitle too, that Beelzebub, or “Baal”, was a valid character to those persons mentioned above.

Then there is the following from the UB:

(1714.1) 153:4.2 When the people marveled, one of the Pharisees stood up and charged that Jesus could do these things because he was in league with devils; that he admitted in the language which he employed in casting out this devil that they were known to each other; and he went on to state that the religious teachers and leaders at Jerusalem had decided that Jesus did all his so-called miracles by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of devils. Said the Pharisee: “Have nothing to do with this man; he is in partnership with Satan.”

Now if I’m reading this wrong, please elaborate my error, but it seems straight forward to me? But, I must admit that I might be wrong in what I read? I do not profess to be perfect, nor wish to be, because there is little to look forward to be learning more in the future.
BonitaParticipant
Dec 22, 2016, 11:34 AM
HERE’S WHAT’S REALLY IN TUB

Beelzebub is the leader of the disloyal midwayers: 53:1.5 Abaddon was the chief of the staff of Caligastia. He followed his master into rebellion and has ever since acted as chief executive of the Urantia rebels. Beelzebub was the leader of the disloyal midway creatures who allied themselves with the forces of the traitorous Caligastia.

Baal was a Canaanite fertility god: 97:3.3 The northern and more settled Canaanites (the Baalites) freely bought, sold, and mortgaged their lands. The word Baal means owner. The Baal cult was founded on two major doctrines: First, the validation of property exchange, contracts, and covenants – the right to buy and sell land. Second, Baal was supposed to send rain – he was a god of fertility of the soil. Good crops depended on the favor of Baal. The cult was largely concerned with land, its ownership and fertility.

Many people feared Jesus and one of those fears was that he was in cahoots with the devil or “beside himself,” which means crazy. But that is a reason to debunk his teachings, not kill him. A careful reading of TUB reveals that the Sanhedrin and Roman authorities feared rebellion and losing their authority, power and wealth, nor did anyone think he was the actual devil as claims:

MidiChlorian wrote: Even though there were many who believed Jesus to be who He claimed to be, there were many who thought that He was the agent of the devil of this world, where ultimately was the reasoning behind Jesus’ crucifixion and death, because some thought Him to be the devil.

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