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Peace and war

57 posts · 5 participants · started Sep 24, 2014, 1:54 AM

MaraParticipant
Oct 14, 2014, 2:21 PM

Bonita wrote: Just what is a peacemaker, anyway?

People who are son-conscious, those who are born again, are denominated faith-sons. (141:7:4) We are faith children of our Father in heaven.

150:5:3 “Salvation is the gift of the Father and is revealed by his Sons. Acceptance by faith on your part makes you a partaker of the divine nature, a son or a daughter of God. By faith you are justified; by faith are you saved; and by this same faith are you eternally advanced in the way of progressive and divine perfection. By faith was Abraham justified and made aware of salvation by the teachings of Melchizedek. All down through the ages has this same faith saved the sons of men, but now has a Son come forth from the Father to make salvation more real and acceptable.”

And if we are partakers of the divine nature as faith-sons, we are also peacemakers in potential and progressing decision by decision in divine perfection. Peacemaking is the cure for distrust and suspicion.

140:5:18 3. “Happy are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.” Jesus’ hearers were longing for military deliverance, not for peacemakers. But Jesus’ peace is not of the pacific and negative kind. In the face of trials and persecutions he said, “My peace I leave with you.” “Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” This is the peace that prevents ruinous conflicts. Personal peace integrates personality. Social peace prevents fear, greed, and anger. Political peace prevents race antagonisms, national suspicions, and war. Peacemaking is the cure of distrust and suspicion.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 16, 2014, 3:19 PM
Mara wrote: People who are son-conscious, those who are born again, are denominated faith-sons.

That’s a nifty answer. So you say that peacemakers are people who are son-conscious. Do you mean conscious of the Son, or conscious of sonship? I think you mean the latter. So, isn’t sonship a gift ? If sonship is a gift, then peace is also a gift. But I think it means conscious of the Son too. Peacemakers are those who are living a righteous life, doing God’s will and bringing forth the fruits of the Spirit; which is the same as saying, the Spirit of Truth is living with and through them. This is how Jesus lives again.

Jesus’ peace is not the pacific kind, as per the quote, and that’s a pretty powerful statement. Too many of today’s peacemakers are of the pacific kind. The spiritual life, dominated by the Spirit of Truth, is meant to be the most powerful, progressive and aggressive driving force in the world today.

194:3.4 The spiritual forward urge is the most powerful driving force present in this world; the truth-learning believer is the one progressive and aggressive soul on earth.
MaraParticipant
Oct 16, 2014, 10:40 PM
Thanks for joining the topic Bonita!

We have such a wealth of resources to help us be peacemakers. In the broadest sense, life, plus the world and environment on which to live it, is a gift. Personality, the indwelling spirit, our Bestowal Son, sonship, faith, free-will, the seven adjutant-mind-spirits, salvation, mercy, spiritual reason and soul intelligence the endowments of the Holy Spirit, spiritual wisdom and philosophy endowments of Spirit of Truth, personality survival, and eternal life are gifts of God. God made them and made them possible. Special ability is never an arbitrary gift, as there is always an ancestral foundation for it. But perhaps some persons are better peacemakers on earth than others.

115:0:1   With God the Father, sonship is the great relationship. With God the Supreme, achievement is the prerequisite to status — one must do something as well as be something.

If I apply “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect,” then that is the direction I want to go in life. For me it is about self-mastery, and I’m working on it – redirecting my thinking to the highest uplifting ministry I can come up with.

143:2:7    “Your sonship is grounded in faith, and you are to remain unmoved by fear. Your joy is born of trust in the divine word, and you shall not therefore be led to doubt the reality of the Father’s love and mercy. It is the very goodness of God that leads men into true and genuine repentance. Your secret of the mastery of self is bound up with your faith in the indwelling spirit, which ever works by love. Even this saving faith you have not of yourselves; it also is the gift of God. And if you are the children of this living faith, you are no longer the bondslaves of self but rather the triumphant masters of yourselves, the liberated sons of God.”

Bonita wrote:   Jesus’ peace is not the pacific kind, as per the quote. . . .

I think this refers to the interpretation of when someone takes your coat, offer him the other garment, rather than retaliate or be a passive victim to some injustice. Offer to walk an extra mile. Take a positive action of some sort, and this takes creative thinking and faith! “The positive always has advantage over the negative. . . .”

102:6:7   Belief may not be able to resist doubt and withstand fear, but faith is always triumphant over doubting, for faith is both positive and living. The positive always has the advantage over the negative, truth over error, experience over theory, spiritual realities over the isolated facts of time and space. The convincing evidence of this spiritual certainty consists in the social fruits of the spirit which such believers, faithers, yield as a result of this genuine spiritual experience. Said Jesus: “If you love your fellows as I have loved you, then shall all men know that you are my disciples.”
AnonymousInactive
Oct 17, 2014, 2:45 AM

Bonita wrote:

Jesus’ peace is not the pacific kind, as per the quote, and that’s a pretty powerful statement. Too many of today’s peacemakers are of the pacific kind. The spiritual life, dominated by the Spirit of Truth, is meant to be the most powerful, progressive and aggressive driving force in the world today.

194:3.4 The spiritual forward urge is the most powerful driving force present in this world; the truth-learning believer is the one progressive and aggressive soul on earth.

pacific – adjective
1. tending or conducive to peace; conciliatory
2. not aggressive; opposed to the use of force
3. free from conflict; peaceful

I so enjoy posters’ opinionated definitions of the Urantia Book text, especially when the quotes are cut up to make their point, whereby as an “aggressive driving force” points it down other gullets.

If one reads the entire quote and the preceding and quotes which follow, I don’t see where an aggressive attitude regarding “Jesus’ peace” can be understood from its context, but it does explain the presenters attitude towards other opinions which do not follow along the presenters belief, nor does it follow along the lines of “the golden rule” whereby the opposite seems applicable.

The previous quote in its entirety and previous and following narrations is as follows:

(2063.1) 194:3.3 To Jesus, mortal life had dealt its hardest, cruelest, and bitterest blows; and this man met these ministrations of despair with faith, courage, and the unswerving determination to do his Father’s will. Jesus met life in all its terrible reality and mastered it — even in death. He did not use religion as a release from life. The religion of Jesus does not seek to escape this life in order to enjoy the waiting bliss of another existence. The religion of Jesus provides the joy and peace of another and spiritual existence to enhance and ennoble the life which men now live in the flesh.

(2063.2) 194:3.4 If religion is an opiate to the people, it is not the religion of Jesus. On the cross he refused to drink the deadening drug, and his spirit, poured out upon all flesh, is a mighty world influence which leads man upward and urges him onward. The spiritual forward urge is the most powerful driving force present in this world; the truth-learning believer is the one progressive and aggressive soul on earth.

(2063.3) 194:3.5 On the day of Pentecost the religion of Jesus broke all national restrictions and racial fetters. It is forever true, “Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” On this day the Spirit of Truth became the personal gift from the Master to every mortal. This spirit was bestowed for the purpose of qualifying believers more effectively to preach the gospel of the kingdom, but they mistook the experience of receiving the outpoured spirit for a part of the new gospel which they were unconsciously formulating.

(2063.4) 194:3.6 Do not overlook the fact that the Spirit of Truth was bestowed upon all sincere believers; this gift of the spirit did not come only to the apostles. The one hundred and twenty men and women assembled in the upper chamber all received the new teacher, as did all the honest of heart throughout the whole world. This new teacher was bestowed upon mankind, and every soul received him in accordance with the love for truth and the capacity to grasp and comprehend spiritual realities. At last, true religion is delivered from the custody of priests and all sacred classes and finds its real manifestation in the individual souls of men.

(2063.5) 194:3.7 The religion of Jesus fosters the highest type of human civilization in that it creates the highest type of spiritual personality and proclaims the sacredness of that person.

(2063.6) 194:3.8 The coming of the Spirit of Truth on Pentecost made possible a religion which is neither radical nor conservative; it is neither the old nor the new; it is to be dominated neither by the old nor the young. The fact of Jesus’ earthly life provides a fixed point for the anchor of time, while the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth provides for the everlasting expansion and endless growth of the religion which he lived and the gospel which he proclaimed. The spirit guides into all truth; he is the teacher of an expanding and always-growing religion of endless progress and divine unfolding. This new teacher will be forever unfolding to the truth-seeking believer that which was so divinely folded up in the person and nature of the Son of Man.

(2064.1) 194:3.9 The manifestations associated with the bestowal of the “new teacher,” and the reception of the apostles’ preaching by the men of various races and nations gathered together at Jerusalem, indicate the universality of the religion of Jesus. The gospel of the kingdom was to be identified with no particular race, culture, or language. This day of Pentecost witnessed the great effort of the spirit to liberate the religion of Jesus from its inherited Jewish fetters. Even after this demonstration of pouring out the spirit upon all flesh, the apostles at first endeavored to impose the requirements of Judaism upon their converts. Even Paul had trouble with his Jerusalem brethren because he refused to subject the gentiles to these Jewish practices. No revealed religion can spread to all the world when it makes the serious mistake of becoming permeated with some national culture or associated with established racial, social, or economic practices.

(2064.2) 194:3.10 The bestowal of the Spirit of Truth was independent of all forms, ceremonies, sacred places, and special behavior by those who received the fullness of its manifestation. When the spirit came upon those assembled in the upper chamber, they were simply sitting there, having just been engaged in silent prayer. The spirit was bestowed in the country as well as in the city. It was not necessary for the apostles to go apart to a lonely place for years of solitary meditation in order to receive the spirit. For all time, Pentecost disassociates the idea of spiritual experience from the notion of especially favorable environments.

(2064.3) 194:3.11 Pentecost, with its spiritual endowment, was designed forever to loose the religion of the Master from all dependence upon physical force; the teachers of this new religion are now equipped with spiritual weapons. They are to go out to conquer the world with unfailing forgiveness, matchless good will, and abounding love. They are equipped to overcome evil with good, to vanquish hate by love, to destroy fear with a courageous and living faith in truth. Jesus had already taught his followers that his religion was never passive; always were his disciples to be active and positive in their ministry of mercy and in their manifestations of love. No longer did these believers look upon Yahweh as “the Lord of Hosts.” They now regarded the eternal Deity as the “God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.” They made that progress, at least, even if they did in some measure fail fully to grasp the truth that God is also the spiritual Father of every individual.

Aggression is not a “spiritual weapon”.

Jesus once said, “to hate life,” whereby the material forms of, or material forces of life, are difficult enough to be adhered too through their own hardships of existence; then there is the spirit of life which supports the life within to be shared with others, and if this life is aggressively presented it is aggressively received and responded too in kind.
MaraParticipant
Oct 17, 2014, 3:11 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:. . . then there is the spirit of life which supports the life within to be shared with others, and if this life is aggressively presented it is aggressively received and responded too in kind.

Thanks for joining the topic Midi! I could not find a reference to your statement that “Jesus once said, ‘to hate life. . . ‘” so, I do disagree with you on this point. The part of your comments I’ve highlighted lead me to infer from what you said a kind of thinking (the kind of thinking that occurs in one’s mind) described by the phrase “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.” When someone wrongs you, you can wrong them back. But the desire for self-mastery leads one to the higher levels of thinking to attain the highest levels of self-realization. The happy and effective person is motivated by the love of right doing.

140:8:5 He never ceased to warn his disciples against the evil practice of retaliation; he made no allowance for revenge, the idea of getting even. He deplored the holding of grudges. He disallowed the idea of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. He discountenanced the whole concept of private and personal revenge, assigning these matters to civil government, on the one hand, and to the judgment of God, on the other. He made it clear to the three that his teachings applied to the individual, not the state. He summarized his instructions up to that time regarding these matters, as:

Love your enemies — remember the moral claims of human brotherhood.

The futility of evil: A wrong is not righted by vengeance. Do not make the mistake of fighting evil with its own weapons.

Have faith — confidence in the eventual triumph of divine justice and eternal goodness.

But also remember Jesus was not a political reformer. He did not come to reorganize the world.
AnonymousInactive
Oct 17, 2014, 5:36 PM

Mara wrote:

I could not find a reference to your statement that “Jesus once said, ‘to hate life. . . ‘” so, I do disagree with you on this point.

That is the point, you can disagree, regardless of what others say or do. You will not find a reference to my statement, because it comes from my past, and that is mine not yours. That which effects me cannot affect you unless you can verify it to yourself. My past is my present and future not yours, although there are some who would force their life on others based on their past. An “eye for an eye” only applies to the law, and not to the heart of the message of the Kingdom within. To do unto others as you would have them do unto you, can not be practiced under the law, only through the Grace of God. One cannot find all that is relevant to life in one book alone; life must be experienced but not forced onto others whereby creating clones and only one way of thinking. “Have you faith? Then have it to yourself.”
MaraParticipant
Oct 17, 2014, 8:31 PM

MidiChlorian wrote:

Mara wrote:

I could not find a reference to your statement that “Jesus once said, ‘to hate life. . . ‘” so, I do disagree with you on this point.

That is the point, you can disagree, regardless of what others say or do. You will not find a reference to my statement, because it comes from my past, and that is mine not yours. That which effects me cannot affect you unless you can verify it to yourself. My past is my present and future not yours, although there are some who would force their life on others based on their past.

You are right – you and I can disagree. In our disagreement can we also be agreeable in nature? I hope so.

MidiChlorian wrote:

An “eye for an eye” only applies to the law, and not to the heart of the message of the Kingdom within . To do unto others as you would have them do unto you, can not be practiced under the law, only through the Grace of God. One cannot find all that is relevant to life in one book alone; life must be experienced but not forced onto others whereby creating clones and only one way of thinking. “Have you faith? Then have it to yourself.”

I agree with you on these points. In retrospect I was harsh to use the phrase “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.” I was responding to your comment: “… and if this life is aggressively presented it is aggressively received and responded too in kind.” Returning aggression for aggression is not the way of peace in my opinion. I think we must master ourselves in our inner mental life, understand ourselves, and achieve self-control. The revelators tell us this:

28:6:20 And the manifestation of greatness on a world like Urantia is the exhibition of self-control. The great man is not he who “takes a city” or “overthrows a nation,” but rather “he who subdues his own tongue.”
AnonymousInactive
Oct 17, 2014, 10:28 PM

Mara wrote:

Returning aggression for aggression is not the way of peace in my opinion. I think we must master ourselves in our inner mental life, understand ourselves, and achieve self-control. The revelators tell us this:

28:6:20 And the manifestation of greatness on a world like Urantia is the exhibition of self-control. The great man is not he who “takes a city” or “overthrows a nation,” but rather “he who subdues his own tongue.”

You are correct in your assessment regarding “self-control”, however once one has achieved a certain level of understanding of, or in themselves, they tend to formulate a method of projecting this understanding unto others whereby they recognize similar paths taken, as if only to acknowledge a reflection of past life experience. So too is the World we live in, a reflection of War and peacemaking, whereby “those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”, and so too this applies to individuals. How much adjusting is required before time can be changed to a path of right-doing, if the first step to changing the past, is to take a different step towards the future.

Your presentation of this topic is admirable, however, I suspect that the answer to achieving peace in this World cannot be found in the Urantia Book, but it can project a first step to building a foundation for peace, where in order to start building World peace one must start by making corrections within the nation where one lives.

The Government of this Country has changed for the worse over its history because it was founded on Liberty of all people who fostered freedom, but changed by the selected, in recent times, from a body of self-governed peoples to a dominant-governed system, not by and for the people, but for a Nation of people who only wish to live in peace, but must pay the price of loosing the liberty of freedom.

We live in a Country which is ruled by over 73,000 pages of Tax code which has over time been manipulated to foster deception in thinking that nothing can be done to correct this issue because nobody can understand what is in these pages, therefore because of stupidity and neglect for the peoples who make up this Nation, politics prevails, those who have manipulated this Government to its current status, relish in the fruits of past errors and have no intension of making any changes for the better. Even though it is possible to make positive changes which will again make this Country flourish once again over others, to set an example of administering liberty and freedom to all peoples of the World, but first it must get its own house in order, which is a doable exercise, once the reason for its failure has been publically brought to light and life. To understand a problem is the first step in correcting a problem.

We examine the Urantia Book as if it holds all the answers to life’s problems but are unwilling to examine and admit that we are the problem of our own making because we are unwilling to stand up for ourselves and demand answers, and take control of our own destinies. Our Father will not do it for us because we would not learn why what He did to correct the problems would live on past the moment where He made those changes. We are given the tools to make these changes and teach others why these changes were and are necessary so that the future will not have to suffer the same mistakes which have been our destiny over the History of time. Pray not for what God can do for us, but pray for the wisdom to make changes to do for ourselves and the courage to make the right changes which will not need correction in the future.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 19, 2014, 2:14 PM

Mara wrote: If I apply “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect,” then that is the direction I want to go in life. For me it is about self-mastery, and I’m working on it – redirecting my thinking to the highest uplifting ministry I can come up with.

I’m wondering what your interpretation of self-mastery is. When Jesus said, “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it,” what did he mean to you, or to anyone, for that matter. I think it has a lot to do with being a peacemaker.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 19, 2014, 2:20 PM

MidiChlorian wrote: Jesus once said, “to hate life,” whereby the material forms of, or material forces of life, are difficult enough to be adhered too through their own hardships of existence; then there is the spirit of life which supports the life within to be shared with others, and if this life is aggressively presented it is aggressively received and responded too in kind.

That is a very remarkable statement Midi and it sounds gnostic to me. Gnostics hate the material life created by the demiurge. But Jesus was not gnostic. It’s quite inconceivable that Jesus would ever say to hate life of any kind on any level. If he told us to hate life, then that means he must hate life too. If Jesus hates life, why did he bother to live a material life? Why does he love us living the material life? Why does he continue to live in us? Since life is a gift of the Creative Spirit, then he would also hate the Creative Spirit. If Jesus hates the Creative Spirit, he would have to hate himself, since they are essentially one. If he hates himself he would also have to hate the Father. Pretty ridiculous, I’d say.

Isn’t the “spirit of life which supports the life within” the same as the Holy Spirit? What’s wrong with aggressively sharing the Holy Spirit? Aggressive sharing is positive, progressive, dynamic and alive. And yes, such aggressive living with the spirit of life, which is also love itself, is often aggressively received in that it frequently transforms and enlightens those open to it. All good in my opinion.
MaraParticipant
Oct 19, 2014, 3:39 PM

MidiChlorian wrote: Pray not for what God can do for us, but pray for the wisdom to make changes to do for ourselves and the courage to make the right changes which will not need correction in the future.

It seems the evolution of peace on our world is very slow, especially when we can envision what a world would look like if it achieved one of the stages of light and life.

Bonita wrote: I’m wondering what your interpretation of self-mastery is.

One aspect of self-mastery is all about attitude adjustment. Getting riled up about someone or something that happened, for example. Attitude adjustment is about how I think about and process things pertaining to real life situations in my inner life. It’s about choosing how to think, and, it is about self-correction, self-restraint, discretion. It’s about integrity and accountability. It’s about getting wisdom and wisdom can grow out of the trials and errors of experience, unless the person is fixated on something and refuses, at least for the time being, not to be open to learning by experience. Self-mastery is what I am after.
AnonymousInactive
Oct 19, 2014, 4:10 PM

Bonita wrote:

That is a very remarkable statement Midi and it sounds gnostic to me. Gnostics hate the material life created by the demiurge.

Actually it is not Gnostic in nature, and if your statement as indicated above, that the Demiurge, had created life, or actually this physical environment, it is incorrect, in that the Demiurge’s Mother created this physical environment for the Demiurge to live in. It was the Demiurge who upon realizing Its being, thought that this creation was from Its own creation, but later repented, which is buried in many other Gnostic codex’s. Nevertheless, as to my other statement, I present the following from Luke: 14.

25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Even though these words were not presented in kind in the UB does not indicate that they were not spoken.

(41.6) 2:6.8 God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe.

As to my previous statement regarding this subject:

(1220.7) 111:4.8 You cannot completely control the external world — environment. It is the creativity of the inner world that is most subject to your direction because there your personality is so largely liberated from the fetters of the laws of antecedent causation. There is associated with personality a limited sovereignty of will.

(1220.8) 111:4.9 Since this inner life of man is truly creative, there rests upon each person the responsibility of choosing as to whether this creativity shall be spontaneous and wholly haphazard or controlled, directed, and constructive. How can a creative imagination produce worthy children when the stage whereon it functions is already preoccupied by prejudice, hate, fears, resentments, revenge, and bigotries?

(1220.9) 111:4.10 Ideas may take origin in the stimuli of the outer world, but ideals are born only in the creative realms of the inner world. Today the nations of the world are directed by men who have a superabundance of ideas, but they are poverty-stricken in ideals. That is the explanation of poverty, divorce, war, and racial hatreds.

(1220.10) 111:4.11 This is the problem: If freewill man is endowed with the powers of creativity in the inner man, then must we recognize that freewill creativity embraces the potential of freewill destructivity. And when creativity is turned to destructivity, you are face to face with the devastation of evil and sin — oppression, war, and destruction. Evil is a partiality of creativity which tends toward disintegration and eventual destruction. All conflict is evil in that it inhibits the creative function of the inner life — it is a species of civil war in the personality.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 19, 2014, 7:41 PM

Mara wrote: Self-mastery is what I am after.

They say that trustworthiness is the true measure of self-mastery (28:6.13). I think trustworthiness is about attaining divinity of character. Jesus is the epitome of the attainment of divinity of character capable by a human being. There’s no doubt that a living relationship with him as the Spirit of Truth is a critical part of self-mastery.

143:2.4 By the old way you seek to suppress, obey, and conform to the rules of living; by the new way you are first transformed by the Spirit of Truth and thereby strengthened in your inner soul by the constant spiritual renewing of your mind, and so are you endowed with the power of the certain and joyous performance of the gracious, acceptable, and perfect will of God. Forget not — it is your personal faith in the exceedingly great and precious promises of God that ensures your becoming partakers of the divine nature. Thus by your faith and the spirit’s transformation, you become in reality the temples of God, and his spirit actually dwells within you. If, then, the spirit dwells within you, you are no longer bondslaves of the flesh but free and liberated sons of the spirit. The new law of the spirit endows you with the liberty of self–mastery in place of the old law of the fear of self-bondage and the slavery of self-denial.
BonitaParticipant
Oct 19, 2014, 7:59 PM

MidiChlorian wrote: Actually it is not Gnostic in nature, and if your statement as indicated above, that the Demiurge, had created life, or actually this physical environment, it is incorrect, in that the Demiurge’s Mother created this physical environment for the Demiurge to live in. It was the Demiurge who upon realizing Its being, thought that this creation was from Its own creation, but later repented, which is buried in many other Gnostic codex’s.

Well that depends on whether you are a Sethian or a Valentinian.

MidiChlorian wrote:

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I’m really sorry you think that something written by a physician and traveling companion of Paul’s, who wasn’t present for any of Jesus’ teaching (neither was Paul) is a more reliable source of truth than the UB. We are told that Luke reinterpreted Jesus’ sayings in line with his own personal beliefs. Luke was essentially a communist, he was a strong believer in social equality and communal living. It would make sense that he misunderstood the Master’s words about family and preferred to interpret it to mean that love of the collective trumps love of the individual. (Hmmm, sounds like the Borg)

This is what he actually said:

154:6.5 It was just another of those instances in which his earth family could not comprehend that he must be about his Father’s business. And so Mary and his brothers were deeply hurt when, notwithstanding that he paused in his speaking to receive the message, instead of his rushing out to greet them, they heard his musical voice speak with increased volume: “Say to my mother and my brothers that they should have no fear for me. The Father who sent me into the world will not forsake me; neither shall any harm come upon my family. Bid them be of good courage and put their trust in the Father of the kingdom. But, after all, who is my mother and who are my brothers?” And stretching forth his hands toward all of his disciples assembled in the room, he said: “I have no mother; I have no brothers. Behold my mother and behold my brethren! For whosoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my mother, my brother, and my sister.”

Followed by:

154:6.12 But he did say to David Zebedee as he entered the boat in hasty flight: “Tell my mother and my brothers that I appreciate their coming, and that I intended to see them. Admonish them to find no offense in me but rather to seek for a knowledge of the will of God and for grace and courage to do that will.”
MaraParticipant
Oct 20, 2014, 3:35 PM

Bonita wrote:   When Jesus said, “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it,” what did he mean to you, or to anyone, for that matter. I think it has a lot to do with being a peacemaker.

Let me tell you a personal story. Long, long ago I was saved or as I like to say I was salvaged. Anyhow, after that I deeply thought about the matter. I tried to imagine in my mind the worst case and hypothetical scenario I could be in that would be a great test of my salvation, my faith. I imagined being imprisoned in a country not ruled by the rule of law. I tried to image myself in the most depraved, deplorable and abhorrent conditions there. I imagined receiving the worst of the worst treatment there. I decided they could kill me, but could never take away from me my faith ever!

01:3:16   12. Goes right on worshiping God in spite of anything and everything. Dares to declare, “Even though he slay me, yet will I serve him.” [See PAPER 101]

Job 13:15   Though he slay me, yet I will trust him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

Though as Midi reminded me earlier, I should keep my faith to myself. Yet Stephen and many others after him died proclaiming their faith, but Stephen also attacked the traditional Jewish temple practices, and that was a no-no. His faith, however, did win over Saul of Tarsus who also was later saved on the Damascus road.

It goes without saying I have not experienced laying down my life for my friends, as Jesus did. Can I? Will I be required to do this? Don’t know. Maybe I will have a long horrible illness in which to demonstrate my faith to those who care for me.

Rodan interpreted “Whoso would save his life must lose it” as a soul struggle. (160:5:10)

Jesus talked about selfishness and gaining in a worldly sense, without regard to one’s soul when he said:

158:7:5    “After they had recovered from the first shock of Jesus’ stinging rebuke, and before they resumed their journey, the Master spoke further: “If any man would come after me, let him disregard himself, take up his responsibilities daily, and follow me. For whosoever would save his life selfishly, shall lose it, but whosoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s, shall save it. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul? What would a man give in exchange for eternal life? Be not ashamed of me and my words in this sinful and hypocritical generation, even as I will not be ashamed to acknowledge you when in glory I appear before my Father in the presence of all the celestial hosts. Nevertheless, many of you now standing before me shall not taste death till you see this kingdom of God come with power.”

The choice is to be with God, or not. To do his bidding, or not.
AnonymousInactive
Oct 20, 2014, 3:58 PM

Bonita wrote:

I’m really sorry you think that something written by a physician and traveling companion of Paul’s, who wasn’t present for any of Jesus’ teaching (neither was Paul) is a more reliable source of truth than the UB.

Actually I don’t “think that something written by a physician” or that anything presented by a physician, including yourself, can be considered as a reliable. But truth is in the mind’s eye of a believer, and experience or lack of it can adjust and warp the use of knowledge, when the perception of knowing cannot be validated but through the mind. If you think that Paul, knew nothing of Jesus, then you forget that Jesus was with him, and turned his mind to understand Him from within, yet for some, unless it is written with words cannot always see the handwriting within the text presented. Jesus’ spirit was with Paul, in order to continue the message of the Kingdom within, yet even through not physically present but being guided by the Spirit of Truth, should account for something. If the UB is the only source of truth, then truth is one-sided to the authors of its text, and if the mind is not open to many possibilities, the true truth cannot be assessed when by their own admission the UB is incomplete. Therefore until one takes into account all of the truth which can be presented on any one topic, can we not consider the truth without all of the information, therefore the UB can NOT be considered absolute. But, if you wish to believe that it is, then that is your right, but I also have the right to my opinion without being badgered by someone who thinks that their opinion is the only opinion that counts, therefore there can never be an honest debate between anyone, if they are NOT open to discussion. So, too is the history of War and Peace, where there are two or more sides which feel that their position is absolute, and that compromise will never be placed on the table, where each feels that the other has no right to exist.
BradlyParticipant
Oct 20, 2014, 7:16 PM
Bonita wrote:

I’m wondering what your interpretation of self-mastery is. When Jesus said, “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it,” what did he mean to you, or to anyone, for that matter. I think it has a lot to do with being a peacemaker.

Me here: Greetings all…sorry to be so absent…lots of vicissitudes at hand right now. My interpretation of this quote (also within the gospels) has always been that of the focus and intent of the individual….to “save” my life is all about me, to do that which serves my interests; while, conversely, those who will “lose” their “self” in love and service, will find progress and purpose that is divine in nature. It’s about the transfer of the seat of our identity I think. Similar to he who would be first, etc. The sayings of Jesus are often illuminated by the Eastern view of duality and the obstacle of “self” to enlightening and purpose.

On the broader topic of war and peace, it is well documented that the progressive technologies which propel civilization forward originate and find development resources primarily, almost without exception, from the war machine. From steel to digitization, war focuses resources like no other cause. This has been especially true on our world of mixed epochs and without Prince and Garden to divert such aggression into less horrific forms over the millennia, which has allowed barbarity to, nonetheless, deliver the motive and means for foundational technological and scientific progress which has underlain societal transformation. That long term development now leads to great acceleration on many progressive fronts today. If one believes the Most Highs rule and can see the work of our unseen friends in saving us from ourselves and solving the problems created by our former solutions in a long, historical chain of events, it is not so difficult to become optimistic that, despite ourselves, the celestials move us along into epochal transformation. Interesting.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
BradlyParticipant
Oct 20, 2014, 9:28 PM
Mara wrote:

It seems the evolution of peace on our world is very slow, especially when we can envision what a world would look like if it achieved one of the stages of light and life.

Me here: Actually, I don’t think we need L&L to have achieved far more peace than Urantia has and yearns for if we were not so sullied by our “leaders” heretofore. Urantia is one unique place in all the universes of time and I mean truly unique in many ways that affect and reflect our epochal progressions and lack thereof, as depicted in text on a “normal” world. How many worlds of rebellion had a Prince that did not rebel? Or a Garden that did not default? Or a Teacher or Majesterial Son on-planet already – some celestial who persisted in example and leadership? Urantia was left with not a single celestial leader on-world and not a single example of higher knowledge and pattern from which to help in the recovery from rebellion. We have progressed dumb, deaf, and blind by comparison to most if not all other worlds “isolated” by rebellion. We are beyond isolation IMO.

And this may have been the compelling reason for Michael’s choice of Urantia as his final bestowal mission. And when we trace the planetary progress through multiple epochs simultaneously and yet not uniformly since the Master’s gift of the Spirit of Truth, it is apparent what a wild card accelerant that event was to our world. We face many dangers in our prosperity and materialism it is true. But such progress as has unfolded in such a brief time of universe reckoning is probably rather breath taking for our celestial friends I think. Our time unit perspective makes us believe in no progress or glacial progress and we are impatient for greater and faster progress while, in reality, progress has been monumental and quick in its evolutionary out workings I believe.

We now approach a time when the power of commerce trumps the commerce of war; sovereignty is being broken down by financial inter-dependence in ways never known to our world before. There is a growing convergence of mutual self interest that is served by cooperation, trade, travel, multi-lingualism, and peace making. It is true this new force for change will take time to coalesce into a new dynamic – the flux cycle will persist and so will war for a season still. But this is a whole new influence and concurrent with the world wide web’s influence of instant global communication and knowledge access. These two factors will do much to turn our swords into plowshares – or so I conjecture based on who’s in charge around here truly and their ability to leverage humanity’s mistakes and misguided priorities to the work of planetary upliftment over time.

I will not see this unfold perhaps. But knowing our past story and our inevitable outcome, I witness miraculous transformation on a planetary scale. War has had no small part in that change and its acceleration, even during my brief life as witness.

One note on peace makers – they do not negotiate a settlement of give and take between factions I do not think, so much as they help bridge two or more sides to a place of mutual benefit….and the reduction of fear is a significant element in such a practice. The self serving are not yet peace makers no matter their eloquence and success in negotiation. One cannot include self as a peace maker by the example Jesus provided.

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
AnonymousInactive
Oct 21, 2014, 2:52 PM

Mara wrote:

It seems the evolution of peace on our world is very slow, especially when we can envision what a world would look like if it achieved one of the stages of light and life.

Actually Mara, we have been told, even though as a Biblical story, what would occur if one of the stages of light and life were achieved especially if these stages were achieved as an unbalanced stage. We can look at the story about the building of the tower of Babel where all the world spook one language, which is one stage of light and life. Also, another stage which has been envisioned as a one world government, where it has been proclaimed by at least one world leader as the “New World Order”, but upon thinking that this might be associated with a one world government, would have been misinterpreted as a one world corporation where the business of governing the world would fall on a Corporate entity which has no personality structure and where people are considered as cannon fodder, and the control of capital and those who control this capital as the board of directors of this world. When one looks at what was done at the tower of Babel to discourage this one-sided approach to light and life, why would anyone think that the Wars of this world have not been manipulated by the powers that be, as a warning of what would come should light and life not be balanced to include all peoples of this world.

In the Book of Revelation where the mark of the beast has been noted as a number, 666, where nothing will be bought and sold without this number, has already come to pass, in that the Universal Product Code, (UPC) stamped on all products bought and sold today, has embedded within its numbers an unseen 6-6-6 number used as fencing. The ironic thing about the use of these numbers, 6, that they were first 5’s, but had to be changed to 6’s to make the future mathematical algorithm to work out. So, in what direction are we heading, as regarding light and life?
BonitaParticipant
Oct 22, 2014, 2:21 PM

Mara wrote:

It goes without saying I have not experienced laying down my life for my friends, as Jesus did. Can I? Will I be required to do this? Don’t know. Maybe I will have a long horrible illness in which to demonstrate my faith to those who care for me.

Sounds morose. Do you really think that you have to sacrifice yourself on some level in order to prove your loyalty to God? God doesn’t ask anyone to sacrifice themselves, even for their friends. He asks them to sacrifice their sense of self-importance, to put aside the self in the interest of others . . . self-forgetfulness.

180:5.12 The old religion taught self–sacrifice; the new religion teaches only self-forgetfulness, enhanced self-realization in conjoined social service and universe comprehension.

You will not find yourself unless you forget yourself. Trying to save yourself will never succeed until you forget yourself, lose yourself in service to God. “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it”

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