Mind Death

14 posts · 5 participants · started Dec 20, 2017, 12:46 AM

1. RE

   Richard E WarrenParticipant
   Dec 20, 2017, 12:46 AM

   Question Forum Friends,

   Why do you think the author of Paper 12 conflates the human mind and identity, and says that mind survives, when the author of Paper 112 says that mind dies with the body?

   ^{12:8.16 (141.1)} …In time, man’s body is just as real as mind or spirit, but in death, both mind (identity) and spirit survive while the body does not. A cosmic reality can be nonexistent in personality experience. And so your Greek figure of speech — the material as the shadow of the more real spirit substance — does have a philosophic significance.

    

   ^{112:3.3 (1230.1)} 2. Intellectual (mind) death. When the vital circuits of higher adjutant ministry are disrupted through the aberrations of intellect or because of the partial destruction of the mechanism of the brain, and if these conditions pass a certain critical point of irreparability, the indwelling Adjuster is immediately released to depart for Divinington. On the universe records a mortal personality is considered to have met with death whenever the essential mind circuits of human will-action have been destroyed. And again, this is death, irrespective of the continuing function of the living mechanism of the physical body. The body minus the volitional mind is no longer human, but according to the prior choosing of the human will, the soul of such an individual may survive.

    

   ^{112:3.4 (1230.2)} 3. Physical (body and mind) death. When death overtakes a human being, the Adjuster remains in the citadel of the mind until it ceases to function as an intelligent mechanism, about the time that the measurable brain energies cease their rhythmic vital pulsations. Following this dissolution the Adjuster takes leave of the vanishing mind, just as unceremoniously as entry was made years before, and proceeds to Divinington by way of Uversa.

    

   ^***

   Richard E Warren

2. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Dec 20, 2017, 11:43 AM

   “Mind (identity)” in quote 141:1 is referring to the soul.  The “mind” mentioned in Paper 112 is the material mind, not the soul.  The soul is the “mind-matrix and passive potentials of identity” (47:3.3).  I used to get into this with Scott long, long ago, if you recall.  The soul is minded, and its mind is different from the material intellect.

   47:3.3 The mortal-mind transcripts and the active creature-memory patterns as transformed from the material levels to the spiritual are the individual possession of the detached Thought Adjusters; these spiritized factors of mind, memory, and creature personality are forever a part of such Adjusters. The creature mind-matrix and the passive potentials of identity are present in the morontia soul intrusted to the keeping of the seraphic destiny guardians. And it is the reuniting of the morontia-soul trust of the seraphim and the spirit-mind trust of the Adjuster that reassembles creature personality and constitutes resurrection of a sleeping survivor.

    

3. RE

   Richard E WarrenParticipant
   Dec 20, 2017, 1:26 PM

   Thanks Bonita. Figured you’d have a theory. Don’t recall your discussions with Scott…But this will disabuse me of the idea that the soul is mindless. Evidently soul mind will combine/harmonize with ‘morontia mind’, after death…unless they are the same mind. It’s kind of confusing:
   

   …The liaison of the cosmic mind and the ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits evolve a suitable physical tabernacle for the evolving human being. Likewise does the morontia mind individualize the morontia form for all mortal survivors…. ^{42:12.11 (483.11)}

    …When these prerequisites of repersonalization have been assembled, the seraphic custodian of the potentialities of the slumbering immortal soul, with the assistance of numerous cosmic personalities, bestows this morontia entity upon and in the awaiting morontia mind-body form while committing this evolutionary child of the Supreme to eternal association with the waiting Adjuster. And this completes the repersonalization, reassembly of memory, insight, and consciousness — identity…. ^{112:5.19 (1235.1)}

    

   ***

    

   Richard E Warren

4. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Dec 20, 2017, 2:23 PM

   Rick Warren wrote:

   Evidently soul mind will combine/harmonize with ‘morontia mind’, after death…unless they are the same mind. It’s kind of confusing:

   The slumbering soul is morontia mind-matrix, which is morontia memory.  Consciousness comes with the activation of that mind-matrix by personality and Adjuster.  Obviously, once resurrected, additional morontia mind ministry will be applied as it is needed for continued thought and choosing. But it is all part of the many layered cosmic mind ministry of the Creative Spirit, who also provides the supermind matrix of the soul.  Mind is a continuous, unbroken, spirit ministry which always overlaps itself; there are never abrupt transitions from one level of mind to another.  That’s the reason we birth a soul here, so there’s no mind interruption in the next life.

   65:7.7 The adjutants function exclusively in the evolution of experiencing mind up to the level of the sixth phase, the spirit of worship. At this level there occurs that inevitable overlapping of ministry – the phenomenon of the higher reaching down to co-ordinate with the lower in anticipation of subsequent attainment of advanced levels of development. And still additional spirit ministry accompanies the action of the seventh and last adjutant, the spirit of wisdom. Throughout the ministry of the spirit world the individual never experiences abrupt transitions of spirit co-operation; always are these changes gradual and reciprocal. 

5. RE

   Richard E WarrenParticipant
   Dec 20, 2017, 2:46 PM

   The overlapping idea removes all the confusion. Much appreciate the input and that quote from Paper 65.

   Richard E Warren

6. GP

   George ParkParticipant
   Dec 20, 2017, 2:55 PM

   Rick Warren wrote:

   Why do you think the author of Paper 12 conflates the human mind and identity, and says that mind survives, when the author of Paper 112 says that mind dies with the body?

   One interpretation of these two different views on the survival of mortal identity is that not every memory present in the adjutant mind survives its death.

   The Thought Adjuster will recall and rehearse for you only those memories and experiences which are a part of, and essential to, your universe career. If the Adjuster has been a partner in the evolution of aught in the human mind, then will these worth-while experiences survive in the eternal consciousness of the Adjuster. But much of your past life and its memories, having neither spiritual meaning nor morontia value, will perish with the material brain; much of material experience will pass away as onetime scaffolding which, having bridged you over to the morontia level, no longer serves a purpose in the universe. (112:5.22)

   Apparently, much of life experience has neither spiritual meaning nor morontia value from the Adjuster’s perspective. In the absence of wisdom function, this evolutionary (biological) type of knowledge exists only as a protoplasmic memory in the brain. It is not duplicated by the Adjuster as a morontia reality and perishes with the material mind.

   The evolutionary type of knowledge is but the accumulation of protoplasmic memory material; this is the most primitive form of creature consciousness. Wisdom embraces the ideas formulated from protoplasmic memory in process of association and recombination, and such phenomena differentiate human mind from mere animal mind. (101:6.4)

   Since memory is part of identity, it appears that part of the mortal identity survives while another part does not.

    

    

    

7. B

   BradlyParticipant
   Dec 20, 2017, 5:03 PM

   Thanks for the query Rick….and to Bonita and George.  This is a complex issue for me, but fascinating.  Paper 9 helps with context (as does the overlap…which seems to be real in multiple mindal relationships and ministries).  Reflectivity is also a function of the mind circuitry.  Some text on the purity of mind and the impurity potentials and realities related to mortal-mind (not soul/morontia mind) to support George’s post and text offered:

   (103.2) 9:5.4 Since the Third Person of Deity is the source of mind, it is quite natural that the evolutionary will creatures find it easier to form comprehensible concepts of the Infinite Spirit than they do of either the Eternal Son or the Universal Father. The reality of the Conjoint Creator is disclosed imperfectly in the very existence of human mind. The Conjoint Creator is the ancestor of the cosmic mind, and the mind of man is an individualized circuit, an impersonal portion, of that cosmic mind as it is bestowed in a local universe by a Creative Daughter of the Third Source and Center.

   (103.3) 9:5.5 Because the Third Person is the source of mind, do not presume to reckon that all phenomena of mind are divine. Human intellect is rooted in the material origin of the animal races. Universe intelligence is no more a true revelation of God who is mind than is physical nature a true revelation of the beauty and harmony of Paradise. Perfection is in nature, but nature is not perfect. The Conjoint Creator is the source of mind, but mind is not the Conjoint Creator.

   (103.4) 9:5.6 Mind, on Urantia, is a compromise between the essence of thought perfection and the evolving mentality of your immature human nature. The plan for your intellectual evolution is, indeed, one of sublime perfection, but you are far short of that divine goal as you function in the tabernacles of the flesh. Mind is truly of divine origin, and it does have a divine destiny, but your mortal minds are not yet of divine dignity.

   (103.5) 9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness; you subject them to animal fear and distort them by useless anxiety. Therefore, though the source of mind is divine, mind as you know it on your world of ascension can hardly become the object of great admiration, much less of adoration or worship. The contemplation of the immature and inactive human intellect should lead only to reactions of humility.

   "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

8. RE

   Richard E WarrenParticipant
   Dec 21, 2017, 8:36 AM

   Thanks much for the insightFULL comments and quotes George, Bradly. Mind, what a concept!

   Richard E Warren

9. B

   BonitaParticipant
   Dec 21, 2017, 1:53 PM

   Why do you think the author of Paper 12 conflates the human mind and identity.

   As George pointed out, memory is part of identity.  Memory requires mind ministry. The soul retains the worthwhile memory patterns we’ve stored up over a lifetime which will become part of our ongoing identity when activated by the Adjuster and return of the personality.

   (1236.6) 112:6.8 The persistence of memory is proof of the retention of the identity of original selfhood; it is essential to complete self-consciousness of personality continuity and expansion.

   I think that’s one reason why they tell us to train our memories to hold onto all true, beautiful and good episodes in our lives. But first, we have to be able to discover and recognize them, so there must also be training of the mind to think along those lines.  Keeping that gateway open is the only way I know to do this.

   (1779.4) 160:4.12 Train your memory to hold in sacred trust the strength-giving and worth-while episodes of life, which you can recall at will for your pleasure and edification. Thus build up for yourself and in yourself reserve galleries of beauty, goodness, and artistic grandeur. But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. And all of these memory treasures radiate their most precious and exalting influences under the releasing touch of spiritual worship.

    

10. RE

    Richard E WarrenParticipant
    Dec 21, 2017, 3:21 PM

    Bonita wrote:

    Why do you think the author of Paper 12 conflates the human mind and identity.

    As George pointed out, memory is part of identity. Memory requires mind ministry. The soul retains the worthwhile memory patterns we’ve stored up over a lifetime which will become part of our ongoing identity when activated by the Adjuster and return of the personality.

    (1236.6) 112:6.8 The persistence of memory is proof of the retention of the identity of original selfhood; it is essential to complete self-consciousness of personality continuity and expansion.

    I think that’s one reason why they tell us to train our memories to hold onto all true, beautiful and good episodes in our lives. But first, we have to be able to discover and recognize them, so there must also be training of the mind to think along those lines. Keeping that gateway open is the only way I know to do this.

    (1779.4) 160:4.12 Train your memory to hold in sacred trust the strength-giving and worth-while episodes of life, which you can recall at will for your pleasure and edification. Thus build up for yourself and in yourself reserve galleries of beauty, goodness, and artistic grandeur. But the noblest of all memories are the treasured recollections of the great moments of a superb friendship. And all of these memory treasures radiate their most precious and exalting influences under the releasing touch of spiritual worship.

    Good to make this connection between memories, soul, and identity. And it lends a bit more credence to my fictional characters in Resurrection Hall retaining some their memories of life on Urantia.

    Richard E Warren

11. C

    ColeParticipant
    Dec 21, 2017, 6:36 PM

    Bradly notes above:

    (103.2) 9:5.4 Since the Third Person of Deity is the source of mind, it is quite natural that the evolutionary will creatures find it easier to form comprehensible concepts of the Infinite Spirit than they do of either the Eternal Son or the Universal Father. The reality of the Conjoint Creator is disclosed imperfectly in the very existence of human mind. The Conjoint Creator is the ancestor of the cosmic mind, and the mind of man is an individualized circuit, an impersonal portion, of that cosmic mind as it is bestowed in a local universe by a Creative Daughter of the Third Source and Center.

    I have always been intrigued by this…we have an individual circuit of the cosmic mind.

    Nicola Tesla once said, “My brain is only a receiver. In the universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength, inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists.”

    This man was absolutely fascinating.  It seems to me that he must have been gifted with a TA of great experience….or something else is going on here. Just a few more of his quotes:

    “Every living being is an engine geared to the wheelwork of the universe. Though seemingly affected only by its immediate surrounding, the sphere of external influence extends to infinite distance.”

    (This sounds like our participation in the growth of the Supreme, albeit a bit mechanical).

    “What we now want most is closer contact and better understanding between individuals and communities all over the earth and the elimination of that fanatic devotion to exalted ideals of national egoism and pride,  which is always prone to plunge the world into primeval barbarism and strife.”

    And the quotes of UB interest go on and on and on.

    But I wonder most about HOW he improved, widened, tuned or otherwise somehow vastly improved his individual mind circuit?  Or was it just the facilitation of the TA?  Or the fact that he was a thinker?  Or all of the above and more? Any ideas on this?

     

     

12. B

    BonitaParticipant
    Dec 21, 2017, 9:37 PM

    Does this quote help?

    (507.7) 44:8.2 There are three possible sources of special human ability: At the bottom always there exists the natural or inherent aptitude. Special ability is never an arbitrary gift of the Gods; there is always an ancestral foundation for every outstanding talent. In addition to this natural ability, or rather supplemental thereto, there may be contributed the leadings of the Thought Adjuster in those individuals whose indwelling Adjusters may have had actual and bona fide experiences along such lines on other worlds and in other mortal creatures. In those cases where both the human mind and the indwelling Adjuster are unusually skillful, the spirit artisans may be delegated to act as harmonizers of these talents and otherwise to assist and inspire these mortals to seek for ever-perfecting ideals and to attempt their enhanced portrayal for the edification of the realm.

     

13. C

    ColeParticipant
    Dec 22, 2017, 4:01 PM

    YES…that’s pretty good!

    Thanks much.  Seems a summary would be:

    1. natural aptitude
    2. ancestry
    3. TA with similar experience from other worlds
    4. spirit artisans  (during the morontia career only, I assume?)
14. B

    BonitaParticipant
    Dec 22, 2017, 7:51 PM

    Cole wrote:

    4. spirit artisans  (during the morontia career only, I assume?)

    No, they come here too.

    (507.6) 44:8.1 Although celestial artisans do not personally work on material planets, such as Urantia, they do come, from time to time, from the headquarters of the system to proffer help to the naturally gifted individuals of the mortal races. When thus assigned, these artisans temporarily work under the supervision of the planetary angels of progress. The seraphic hosts co-operate with these artisans in attempting to assist those mortal artists who possess inherent endowments, and who also possess Adjusters of special and previous experience.

     

     

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