Well Brad my mind is made up on this topic. I haven’t found anything in TUB that would suggest a child before roughly age 6 is functioning as a personal being. This is how I feel about the alter-ego. A personal self starts to develop around age 6, and a child begins to have a dialogue between the personal self and the animal origin self. IMO the alter-ego is in reality this personal self that is budding out from the animal origin self.
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Essay on the Alter Ego Approach to Prayer
52 posts · 4 participants · started Aug 15, 2014, 4:08 PM
Well Brad my mind is made up on this topic. I haven’t found anything in TUB that would suggest a child before roughly age 6 is functioning as a personal being.
My dear Brother and Friend – we have agreed on much the past few years and disagreed on some. I do not share your confidence in either your own or my own understanding and do not argue in any hope of agreement, persuasion, or proof. My perspective is nothing more than that – my perspective, but let me warn you of the mind poison of prejudice – your opinion or “mind is made up” is very dangerous and constrictive – caution my Friend.. I hope you see the tongue in my cheek and humor in saying this: the confidence of youth and its beliefs are most humorous to me ….and inspiring in its ridiculous and hilarious way.
I no longer have such confidence in many of my own understandings. My uncertainty is most certain indeed!! Life has taught me two things: the fallibility of believing and accepting the truth of other mortal minds…and cementing the truth “known” by my own understanding….now. I hope you are skeptical of my opinion/experience and, more importantly, that you remain skeptical of your own.
Oh, the confidence of youth!!!!!!! What a privilege….and fantasy!!!!!!!!!! Your “mind is made up”?????!!!!! PLEASE!!!! The older one gets and the more one comes to know which changes and contradicts what was once so certainly known, the more uncertain one’s certainty becomes…..if one is a true truth seeker….as you are Brother. I do not attempt to convince or change your mind Dear Brother but merely contribute my experience for your consideration and reflection ….you well know that truth is progressive so do not cement your position into prejudice.
I do not disagree with you out of confidence in my interpretation of text, just personal experience and observation, as I have witnessed the progression of infant to toddler, and toddler to TA indwelling. That experience, in multiples, leads me to believe that pre-TA children are “persons” with personality and choice, who exhibit altruism that is not natural to animals and are, indeed, altruistic or friendly, gregarious to a fault, generous far beyond self interest, and caring “individuals” with personality who will sacrifice “self” interest for others they “love”. They are not “animals” which become “souls” at some magic age. There is a profound distinction. I do not pretend to either understand nor explain this profound difference.
Bonita…again, my apologies for straying from your original topic: the origination, value, and purpose of the alter ego. My opinion is that this is a fundamental circuitry of all mortal mind and inserted for the very purpose of seeking and finding God. How and why are infants infused with altruism and the alter ego creation/response, if not as a normal, elementary, progressive, and opportunistic vehicle of the initial and crucial moral insight and spirit contact??? Thank you for your sharing of such a profound and important teaching.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
- TUB wrote: A 4 year old cannot choose between good and evil (moral choice). That means there is no activity of wisdom, and without the spirit of wisdom there is no human mind.So, you’re saying that human children are born into this world with only the first five adjutant mind spirits functioning in their minds and this fact makes their minds the equivalent of Andon and Fonta, primates from one million years ago with only one genetic mutation away from monkeys? You’re implying that those children born since the Adamic genetic upstep, which included scores of genetic changes, makes absolutely no difference what so ever? And this is your basis for declaring that children, before entering the 7th psychic circle, are simple, stupid animals?
- TUB wrote: I don’t know what exactly but my guess is that the Local Mother Spirit does something to help get the child going with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps through grace the child is given a measure of personal character at a certain age. I am not sure what all the little details are.Well . . . by your own admission, the child has no access to the Holy Spirit until entering the 7th psychic circle. So, how can the Holy Spirit do “something to help get the child going” if she isn’t even functioning with its mind yet?And then you say that the child gets “a measure” of personal character by grace? Personal character is synonymous with the word personality. So now you are admitting the presence of personality before entering the 7th psychic circle?You say that you are not sure about all the details, but some of us are sure. Here’s how the midwayers described Jesus at the age of three.123:1.2 Jesus was about three years and two months old at the time of their return to Nazareth. He had stood all these travels very well and was in excellent health and full of childish glee and excitement at having premises of his own to run about in and to enjoy. But he greatly missed the association of his Alexandrian playmates.And then at the age of four:123:1.4 Jesus’ entire fourth year was a period of normal physical development and of unusual mental activity. Meantime he had formed a very close attachment for a neighbor boy about his own age named Jacob. Jesus and Jacob were always happy in their play, and they grew up to be great friends and loyal companions.If Jesus, like any other average child his age, had NO personality as you claim, if he was just a mere simple, stupid animal, then how did he form associations and companionships? This is a function of personality. Only personalities can fellowship with other personalities.1:7.1 Interactions can be had between nonpersonal things, but not fellowship.If Jesus was functioning as an animal, then these attachments to other humans would have to be at the animal level of herd instinct. Surely you recognize the personality of the child Jesus. And remember, Jesus was an average human child.The revelators tell us that the 3rd adjutant mind spirit, when combined with personality, provides the root of moral stamina. If, as you say, children are only stupid animals functioning with the first five adjutants, then you are saying that they would NOT have access to this root. But if children ARE personalities, they would have access to it. And even at the age of three, they would have access to the basis of character and moral discernment on a primitive level. Don’t you think that this is the source of “grace” you speak of?36:5.8 3. The spirit of courage – the fidelity endowment – in personal beings, the basis of character acquirement and the intellectual root of moral stamina and spiritual bravery. When enlightened by facts and inspired by truth, this becomes the secret of the urge of evolutionary ascension by the channels of intelligent and conscientious self-direction.And here below, the description of the 5th adjutant mind spirit speaks of will creatures. (That would be creatures with personality.) Even Jesus at the age of 3 and 4, and without having entered the 7th psychic circle, had access to this adjutant which enabled him to harmonize with his fellow playmates. But, lowly animals are only instinctively gregarious when using this adjutant. Jesus at age three, because of the presence of personality and its precious free will, used it to harmonize with his fellows, also known as fellowship, something only personalities can do.36:5.10 5. The spirit of counsel – the social urge, the endowment of species co-operation; the ability of will creatures to harmonize with their fellows; the origin of the gregarious instinct among the more lowly creatures.
- TUB wrote: A highly functioning animal can have an identity. Spornagia are animals and possess an individuality.
In this instance, the word individuality means that one sporangia can be distinguished from another. The word refers to a separate existence for each sporangia that is maintained even through reincarnation. There is nothing to suggest the presence of identity in sporangia. Plants and animals do not have identity. What makes sporangia different from animals on earth is what happens after death. Animals on earth have no individuality after death whereas sporangia maintain their individuality after death and are reborn exactly as they were. Earth animals are absorbed back into the cosmic forces of the universe.
- 123:1.4 Jesus’ entire fourth year was a period of normal physical development and of unusual mental activity. Meantime he had formed a very close attachment for a neighbor boy about his own age named Jacob. Jesus and Jacob were always happy in their play, and they grew up to be great friends and loyal companions.Spornagia can have attachments to people. Spornagia can also talk. Elephants form strong attachments.123:1.2 Jesus was about three years and two months old at the time of their return to Nazareth. He had stood all these travels very well and was in excellent health and full of childish glee and excitement at having premises of his own to run about in and to enjoy. But he greatly missed the association of his Alexandrian playmates.A Spornagia could miss people. An elephant will sometimes mourn the death of a child.But if children ARE personalities, they would have access to it. And even at the age of three, they would have access to the basis of character and moral discernment on a primitive level. Don’t you think that this is the source of “grace” you speak of?If children could use their personalities they would be able to do good, or make a good choice. Even Jesus had to wait until a certain age to be able to make a moral choice. To make a moral choice is to use your personality. The authors flat out tell us that children cannot. Therefor it is obvious that they are not using their personality. There are many quotes that I could draw upon to make my point.
- Bradly wrote: Apologies for the tangent Bonita….but I can see the relation here with your topic…..when does the mind discover alter-ego and begin this conversation of evolutionary concept development?
Hey, no need to apologize. Scott’s tangents seem to dominate this forum though, don’t they? So yeah, this thread is supposed to be about the alter ego and PRAYER, not about ego. It would be nice to get back to the original topic.
When does the mind discover the alter-ego you ask? I imagine it is different for each PERSONALITY, due to that precious commodity we refer to as free will. The revelators give us a clue though and say that it begins with the dawn of the creative imagination. (Again, something only personalities are capable of.) Everyone knows that children, even before the age of 5 or 6, have active creative imaginations, especially since the Adamic upstep.
91:3.1 Children, when first learning to make use of language, are prone to think out loud, to express their thoughts in words, even if no one is present to hear them. With the dawn of creative imagination they evince a tendency to converse with imaginary companions. In this way a budding ego seeks to hold communion with a fictitious alter ego. By this technique the child early learns to convert his monologue conversations into pseudo dialogues in which this alter ego makes replies to his verbal thinking and wish expression. Very much of an adult’s thinking is mentally carried on in conversational form.
- TUB wrote: A personal self starts to develop around age 6,
Around the age of 6 the child begins to develop a SOUL. The soul is not a personal self, as you call it. The soul is not personal at all. In order to use the word personal, there must be the presence of personality. The soul is not a personality (0:5.11).
- Bradly wrote: . . . again, my apologies for straying from your original topic: the origination, value, and purpose of the alter ego. My opinion is that this is a fundamental circuitry of all mortal mind and inserted for the very purpose of seeking and finding God. How and why are infants infused with altruism and the alter ego creation/response, if not as a normal, elementary, progressive, and opportunistic vehicle of the initial and crucial moral insight and spirit contact??? Thank you for your sharing of such a profound and important teaching.
The concept of an alter ego seems to have its origin in the creative imagination. Personality needs other personality; it is its inherent nature to relate to other personalities, invented or real. With the gift of personality comes the insatiable desire for a relationship with other personalities. The physical presence of personalities in relation to a young child determines its social development. But the child needs more than physical relations, it needs mental ones too. There is no person so close to you as the one living within your very own mind. Before entering the 7th psychic circle, children do not have the luxury of the presence of Deity living within their minds; therefore, it is my contention that they invent the presence.
The first five adjutant mind spirits, especially the 5th, are sufficient to allow for the creation of a mental companion, especially in the presence of personality (free will and creative imagination). Once entering the 7th psychic circle, the consciousness of other-mindedness within the environment of selfhood is NOT invented, it is due to the actual presence of Deity. A child practices its fellowshipping skills with an imaginary mental companion, which then translates into a relationship with a real companion within the mind. The difference being that prior to the 7th circle, the imaginary friend is a product of the adjutant mind; after the arrival of the Holy Spirit, this real friend resides in the supermind. The transition between the adjutant mind and the supermind begins with the united function of the adjutants under the guidance of the spirit of wisdom, which when aroused, functions as the gateway from one level to the next.
102:4.3 Man very early becomes conscious that he is not alone in the world or the universe. There develops a natural spontaneous self-consciousness of other-mindness in the environment of selfhood. Faith translates this natural experience into religion, the recognition of God as the reality — source, nature, and destiny — of other-mindness. But such a knowledge of God is ever and always a reality of personal experience. If God were not a personality, he could not become a living part of the real religious experience of a human personality.
Bonita, you write:
If the praying ego follows spirit lead in the relationship, the imaginary companion will evolve into an actual spirit presence.
I would suggest the following as a suitable re-statement of the clause I have italicized above (your words underlined)
If the praying ego follows spirit lead in the relationship, allowing her relationship with her conceptualized ‘alter ego’ to be the ground of true adjustments in thought which in fact alter her attachment to ego-concerns, eventually the actual spirit presence will be discovered as having been there all along as the only real companion, and the source of inspiration for all that thought adjustment and spirit leading.
Anyway it makes more sense to me to depict it this way. Of course the discovery of the real companion behind the human intellect’s ego-sponsored ‘mask’ will be further augmented by the increasing recognition that it had indeed been sponsor of all those adjustments of thought which tended softly away from the praying ego’s early ego-concerns and toward that elimination of self-content which moves prayer into the realm of those sublime interactions of loving service to God and man which constitute true worship.
You also write:
If you have not experienced an actual spirit presence yourself, no words would suffice to explain it.
Bonita, I grant that you would need a different essay to explain these concepts to people who come to your topic with dissimilar word associations or lack of experience.
-Reader
Thank you Bonita. I brought up something on this topic that I’d like to learn more about. While the TAs flow to a world after the Spirit of Truth arrives, what effects does this Son Spirit have in mind with those too young to receive their TA? I haven’t read anything that suggests the Son’s Spirit is limited in mind ministry or circuit connection to only minds that also have the Father Fragment. I know they work together and the TAs come more universally but they are still different ministers to and in mind are they not?
I appreciate your connection of the Adjutants to capacity and potential as well. It seems the mind is like a form of staged “recipe” of multiple ingredients, like bread, , once the yeast is activated by warm water, flour and egg and water stirred in, turned out for kneading, rolling and folding – working the dough – now steps of resting and rising the dough before it suddenly becomes bread at a certain temperature over a certain time. This is the work of Mother I think that, on our world now, is receptive to intuitions and truth ministry, especially the role of confirmer and encourager of the Son’s Spirit – all prior to and critical to the arrival of TA….??? And, as you point out, mind itself and personality also come from Father, regardless of the TAs presence. It seems many cooks are in the kitchen from our birth to TA endowment.
I hope my crude analogy does not confound my point. This text about morality’s evolutionary process and “antecedent to” seems particularly relevant here:
(68.4) 5:5.1 Morality has its origin in the reason of self-consciousness; it is superanimal but wholly evolutionary. Human evolution embraces in its unfolding all endowments antecedent to the bestowal of the Adjusters and to the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth…
Thanks again.
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
- TUB wrote: If children could use their personalities . . . To make a moral choice is to use your personality.Now this is interesting. So you’re admitting that children have personalities then? In regards to being able to use their personalities, this is my point. A child cannot learn to use a personality unless he/she has one to learn about. It is when the child learns how to use the personality that it begins to realize its powers. The powers of personality are: the power of choice; the power of moral discrimination; and the power to unify. When the child gains some control over these powers, when it recognizes its personal responsibility in regards to these powers, it enters the 7th psychic circle. Animals cannot do any of this, even with the help of magic.
- Reader wrote: . . . Of course the discovery of the real companion behind the human intellect’s ego-sponsored ‘mask’ will be further augmented by the increasing recognition that it had indeed been sponsor of all those adjustments of thought which tended softly away from the praying ego’s early ego-concerns and toward that elimination of self-content
It might be useful to remember that not all “praying egos” have ego concerns, nor does everyone hide behind an ego mask. Not all egos are evil in their intent. God listens to the prayer’s intention. Adjustments in thought have to do with meanings and values. Not all egos interpret meanings and values in selfish, egoistic ways. Some egos are pure of heart, humble and childlike. Jesus said we should pray like children, which would suggest innocence, trustfulness, meekness, authenticity, loyalty and respect. Some people actually do that with the greatest sincerity.
48:6.32 And while you are learning to think as men, you should also be learning to pray as children.
It might also be useful to remember that the presence of God dwells within the superconcsous. The superconscious is accessible only through the soul. An intellect preoccupied with masks is not accessing the soul, nor is it accessing the gateway to the soul.
… But before a child has developed sufficiently to acquire moral capacity and therefore to be able to choose altruistic service, he has already developed a strong and well-unified egoistic nature. 103:2:9
This quote might pose a challenge to both sides of this discussion about childhood. We read that a well-unified egoistic nature has sufficient time to develop before it attains to moral capacity. But can we consider this to be the potential personality of a sixth-stage finaliter? Or is this “egoistic nature” something less than bona fide personality, more akin to pre-human animal consciousness?
the quotation continues…
… And it is this factual situation that gives rise to the theory of the struggle between the “higher” and the “lower” natures, between the “old man of sin” and the “new nature” of grace. 103:2:9
I notice they use the word ‘theory’ and not ‘reality’ here.
Very early in life the normal child begins to learn that it is “more blessed to give than to receive.” 103:2:9
“Very early in life” is not a clearly defined age. But to hearken back to another thread – I judge that it requires spiritual insight to learn this lessson.
-Reader
- Bradly wrote: This text about morality’s evolutionary process and “antecedent to” seems particularly relevant here:(68.4) 5:5.1 Morality has its origin in the reason of self-consciousness; it is superanimal but wholly evolutionary. Human evolution embraces in its unfolding all endowments antecedent to the bestowal of the Adjusters and to the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth…Oh absolutely! Morality has its origin in self-consciousness and self-consciousness is impossible without personality. Morality must evolve. Personality cannot evolve; it is pattern and never changes, but it has the power to provide the psychic fulcrum. The personality is never left without assistance in its four major quests: knowledge; moral values; spiritual values; and, personality values. The purpose of the adjutants as mind ministry is to assist the personality with those inherent quests, and when the individual arrives at a point where it needs additional help, it arrives in the form of spirit presence: Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth and Thought Adjuster. It’s a lovely overlapping of ministry of both mind and Deity personality. And within our consciousness, it appears smooth and seamless, nary a wrinkle in sight.65:7.7 The adjutants function exclusively in the evolution of experiencing mind up to the level of the sixth phase, the spirit of worship. At this level there occurs that inevitable overlapping of ministry — the phenomenon of the higher reaching down to co-ordinate with the lower in anticipation of subsequent attainment of advanced levels of development. And still additional spirit ministry accompanies the action of the seventh and last adjutant, the spirit of wisdom. Throughout the ministry of the spirit world the individual never experiences abrupt transitions of spirit co-operation; always are these changes gradual and reciprocal.As for your question about the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth sojourns with the soul. Until there is a soul, I doubt the ability for him to personally affect the mind in a meaningful way. His function is limited by the presence of the Holy Spirit and also partially by the individual’s receptivity of the sum and substance of his mission on earth. (p379:5 34:5.5) However, I’m certain that the evolving mind of the pre-Adjustered child is capable desiring his presence and of recognizing the possibility of establishing a relationship with Jesus on some level. In fact, as in my case, his personality became the personality of my imaginary companion which I formed around age 4 after receiving some children’s books of Bible stories with beautiful illustrations of Jesus interacting with children. He seemed like the perfect person to me even then. I think the personality’s power of moral discernment is active even in the pre-Adjuster state because of the presence of the 5th adjutant. This is why role models, especially fathers, are so important to children in the very early years.
Bonita, you write:
It might also be useful to remember that the presence of God dwells within the superconcsous. The superconscious is accessible only through the soul. An intellect preoccupied with masks is not accessing the soul, nor is it accessing the gateway to the soul.
Indeed, an ego preoccupied with relations to its own self-defined concept of an alter ego is probably not directly accessing the superconscious, but only appealing to a kind of self-generated super-ego.
But it is I think the prerogative of the indwelling spirit to make use of any sincere gesture in its direction. That’s why primitive religion has a value for both humanity and deity, even though it may be ridiculously materialistic.
-Reader
- Reader wrote: This quote might pose a challenge to both sides of this discussion about childhood. We read that a well-unified egoistic nature has sufficient time to develop before it attains to moral capacity. But can we consider this to be the potential personality of a sixth-stage finaliter? Or is this “egoistic nature” something less than bona fide personality, more akin to pre-human animal consciousness?
Wait . . . so you’re saying that animals have egos? I’m sure you don’t mean that.
So just what is a well-unified egoistic nature then? The quote is explaining that the child has a well-unified sense of self before attaining the capacity to evaluate the differing needs between oneself and other-than-self, and that this time is necessary before the child can make appropriate moral decisions. Watching very young children in play you will witness the “it’s mine” phenomena, the inability to share playthings. In the evolution of the concept of selfhood, the child must first learn the difference between self and other-than-self. Most children move through this stage rather quickly and begin to see the value of sharing. But it is not the first inclination of the evolving ego because of the necessity to establish selfhood first. This behavior doesn’t indicate that the child is hateful and mean-spirited (egotistic); it simply means that the child needs to establish a self-boundary (egoistic) before learning about the relationship between self and other-than-self. There is a difference between egoistic and egotistic, although admittedly subtle.
- Reader wrote: But it is I think the prerogative of the indwelling spirit to make use of any sincere gesture in its direction. That’s why primitive religion has a value for both humanity and deity, even though it may be ridiculously materialistic.
Absolutely! Even the faintest flicker. We are never left without help from above as long as we desire it on some level, even unconsciously.
Bonita, you write:
Wait . . . so you’re saying that animals have egos? I’m sure you don’t mean that.
Bonita, you’re quite right, I was not saying that your concept of ‘animal’ could enjoy the reality represented by your concept of ‘ego.’ But I have no problem describing certain complexes of animal behavior as indicative of an ‘egoistic nature.’ Remember the ‘primitive self-consciousness” which the authors allow is possessed by certain higher mammals an a result of the function of the third adjutant? (at least that’s how I remember it, if you don’t recognize it, I’ll find the quote).
It is not outside the scope of modern discourse to refer to humans as members of the animal kingdom. You are too sensitive about ‘evil’ associations with this simple fact of evolution, in my opinion.
- Reader wrote: Remember the ‘primitive self-consciousness” which the authors allow is possessed by certain higher mammals an a result of the function of the third adjutant? (at least that’s how I remember it, if you don’t recognize it, I’ll find the quote).
No, no, no, no . . . . not so! As soon as an animal becomes self-conscious, it becomes a primitive man. Self-consciousness and personality go together. Can’t have one without the other.
133:7.6 When any animal becomes self-conscious, it becomes a primitive man.
16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.
I believe you’re referring to the partial emergence of will, which has nothing to do with the adjutants.
24:2.8 The partial emergence of will observed in the reactions of certain of the higher animals does not belong to the domain of the Census Directors. They keep count of nothing but bona fide will creatures, and they are responsive to nothing but will function. Exactly how they register the function of will, we do not know.
Reader wrote:You are too sensitive about ‘evil’ associations with this simple fact of evolution, in my opinion.I don’t know, perhaps you’re too obsessed with the evil associations of ego? I consider such ideas relics of the past. The ego cannot be removed from self, but it can be forgotten. Self-forgetfulness is the hallmark of self-mastery.3:5.13 Is unselfishness — the spirit of self–forgetfulness — desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.196:0.9 And yet, despite this very deep consciousness of close relationship with divinity, this Galilean, God’s Galilean, when addressed as Good Teacher, instantly replied, “Why do you call me good?” When we stand confronted by such splendid self–forgetfulness, we begin to understand how the Universal Father found it possible so fully to manifest himself to him and reveal himself through him to the mortals of the realms.
