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Can errors in one's way be carried over to the Mansions?

52 posts · 8 participants · started Jun 27, 2017, 12:39 AM

  1. I don’t think murder or violence will be possible in the mansion worlds.  But yes, in general, error,personality flaws, spiritual weaknesses, and bad judgment will certainly be part of the mansion world experience.

    Thank you Keryn.  Looks like you posted while I was composing mine.  I agree with you.  Violence is the law of nature, meaning physical nature.  On the mansion worlds we are no longer physical.  We’re morontial.

    70:1.1 Violence is the law of nature, hostility the automatic reaction of the children of nature, while war is but these same activities carried on collectively. And wherever and whenever the fabric of civilization becomes stressed by the complications of society’s advancement, there is always an immediate and ruinous reversion to these early methods of violent adjustment of the irritations of human interassociations.

     

  2. but the behavior driven by fleshly bodies persists. And the morontial bodies we use as vehicles in the initial mansion worlds are not immortal in the classical sense.

    What is the classical sense of immortality?  For that matter, what’s the non-classical sense?

    Also, it should be noted that only our behavior which resulted in birth and growth of the soul survives, the new character of our personality, persists on the mansion worlds.

    So, what type of behavior gives rise to the soul and promotes its growth?  Behavior which is GOD’S WILL.  Nothing evil, sinful or iniquitous about GOD’S WILL, is there? The character we create by our decisions which are in line with GOD’S WILL is the soul we take with us.  Everything else gets left behind.

    The ability to entertain error and experience evil has to do with NEW decisions on the mansion worlds that may not be entirely in line with GOD’S WILL.  Error and evil don’t go away until we’re fully perfected, and that happens well after we become finaliters.  Finaliters are only sixth stage spirits.  It’s not our final stage, even though it sounds final.

    17:6.10We are mindful that, when finaliters attain what appears to be their final destiny of mortal ascension, they are of record as entering upon the career of sixth-stage spirits.

     

  3. Here’s the definition of the soul again:

    0:5.10 4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to “do the will of the Father in heaven,” so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual — it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.

     

    By my count, there are 53 entries in TUB mentioning the immortal soul.  But what makes the soul immortal?  It’s the Adjuster.  Anytime prior to fusion the soul can refuse the Adjuster.  If the Adjuster should leave the soul, it dies.  But all that was true, beautiful and good in the character of that soul is retained as part of the experience of the Adjuster.  The soul itself no longer exists.  Only the spiritual values that were once part of it continue to exist as immortal.

    So . . . is this what BB means by the soul not being immortal in the classical sense?  Perhaps, I don’t know.  But I do know that no one murders it.  It dies from lack of nourishment, from starvation . . . being disconnected from the vine of reality.

    Other people cannot do that to you.  You do that to yourself.

  4. The answer is right there in your response.  The morontia soul can die under certain conditions. Thus, in the classical sense, it is not immortal

    Here’s the definition of the soul again:

    0:5.10 4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to “do the will of the Father in heaven,” so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual — it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.

    By my count, there are 53 entries in TUB mentioning the immortal soul. But what makes the soul immortal? It’s the Adjuster. Anytime prior to fusion the soul can refuse the Adjuster. If the Adjuster should leave the soul, it dies. But all that was true, beautiful and good in the character of that soul is retained as part of the experience of the Adjuster. The soul itself no longer exists. Only the spiritual values that were once part of it continue to exist as immortal. So . . . is this what BB means by the soul not being immortal in the classical sense? Perhaps, I don’t know. But I do know that no one murders it. It dies from lack of nourishment, from starvation . . . being disconnected from the vine of reality. Other people cannot do that to you. You do that to yourself.

    BB

  5. You may not carry fleshly bodies to the mansion world, but the behavior driven by fleshly bodies persists; animal mind continues.

    I’m pretty sure TUB specifically states that the animal mind does NOT continue in the next life.  The animal mind is a material level ministry.  Mind on the mansion worlds is a morontia level ministry.  They are quite different.

    The animal mind is ministered to by the adjutant mind spirits.  The adjutant mind spirits do not function on the mansion worlds. The immortal soul, which survives material death, is superadjutant.  Although the soul retains the character which it developed during material life, that character has two parents, the adjutant ministries and Adjuster ministry.

    112:6.10 When a creature leaves his native planet, he leaves the adjutant ministry behind and becomes solely dependent on morontia intellect.

    117:5.7 The great circuits of energy, mind, and spirit are never the permanent possessions of ascending personality; these ministries remain forever a part of Supremacy. In the mortal experience the human intellect resides in the rhythmic pulsations of the adjutant mind-spirits and effects its decisions within the arena produced by encircuitment within this ministry. Upon mortal death the human self is everlastingly divorced from the adjutant circuit. While these adjutants never seem to transmit experience from one personality to another, they can and do transmit the impersonal repercussions of decision-action through God the Sevenfold to God the Supreme. (At least this is true of the adjutants of worship and wisdom.)

    This means that the character of the soul is also a morontia level reality, a union of the two ministries.  If the Adjuster had anything to do with the development of the character of the soul, that character must be true, beautiful and good, remembering that those three values are living values, and thus relative to the reality level on which they exist.  Relative and living values are growing values, subject to improving change, i.e. greater perfection.

    More later on the character of the soul.

     

     

     

  6. Bonita – thanks for your recent set of beautifully expressed contributions to various threads.

    I’ll add to George’s “Light and Life cosmology” in a day or so,

    Nigel

  7. Bonita – thanks for your recent set of beautifully expressed contributions to various threads.

    Ditto

     

  8. Thanks guys.

    I’ll add to George’s “Light and Life cosmology” in a day or so . . .

    Oh good!  I will avoid George’s topic in order to give him space.  I know he thinks I’m a know-it-all, so it would be great if someone other than me contributes.  Not that I don’t want to, mind you, because I do.  I just don’t want to cause further irritation by offering my 2¢.

    Speaking of further irritation.  I’m thinking of discussing the character of the soul on a separate thread.  It is directly related to BB’s question about error being carried over to the mansion worlds, but the character of the soul is such a vast topic, it might derail this one.  Does anyone have an opinion on that? Or, perhaps it’s possible that no one is interested in the topic . . . that would be good to know too since it requires tons of work.

  9. Bonita – clarifying the phenomenon of soul-growth would be a wonderful topic!

    With regard to what the UB actually reveals about the nature and purpose of our soul, many of us students suffer simple misunderstandings;  some of us even cling to preconceptions.

    But if you do “dare to launch (103:9.7)“, leading us into this essential exploration, please allow yourself to enjoy the moment, and take your time.  This is not defending a thesis, more a sharing of the overflow   :good:

    thanks – Nigel

  10. This is not defending a thesis, more a sharing of the overflow

    Everything I post here is a sharing of the overflow.  There’s just so much overflowing . . . .

    Thanks.  I’ll take my time and think about it.

  11. Ahhhhhh….Bonita….overflowing like a fountain….. or a spring of inspirational refreshment!

    Looking forward to the new topic…and I appreciate your emphasis here on the friendly universe in which we live and how profound the change from the mortal life on the planet’s of birth and the mansion worlds!  And thanks for pointing out that the personal repercussions of immaturity and mortal error do not make that journey so there is no carry-over of our suffering or mistakes….just more work to accomplish for some than for others in some ways but not all ways either….that’s why there’s 7 worlds of ministry, each with its particular ministries of personal progress!

    An important point I think.  Unlike the schools of our world, the education to come will be highly personalized.  Like the mind/spirit ministers are for us here today….there are lessons all must learn and hold in common but the achievement of those is not uniform or as lineal perhaps as we might think.  So, it appears obvious that errors do not carry over, no….except as those leave ‘gaps’ of education and spirit progress to be addressed more specifically o the Mansions….as is their purpose.

    I am reminded that the Mansions tend to be utilized less and less as a System approaches L&L and less and less error attends the mortal survivors and as more and more find Adjuster fusion on the worlds of material birth.  As worlds pass through the mortal epochs, more and more mortals need less and less ‘corrective’ education….but each soul has the ability in each life to make those choices and commitments to God and Spirit and identity transition, that no one soul of any generation is personally limited in our Circle Progress by the generational success or failure or by the mortal epoch of our own time.

    If interested, one might wish to read Paper 55 to gain a better understanding of the reality in which we will awaken to on the Mansion Worlds….including the first one!  There is a sad tendency to overlay our local material existence onto the worlds and existence to come, limiting our ability to appreciate how very different is the heavenly abode from our material lives.  We taint that reality by our very limited time of struggle here…but our ministers and teachers and the orderliness and friendliness of the Mansion Worlds to come has almost nothing at all in common with a dark, confused, and isolated world early in the Mortal Epochs.  What a glorious place we will find there!

    55:3.1 (624.7) During this age of light and life the world increasingly prospers under the fatherly rule of the Planetary Sovereign. By this time the worlds are progressing under the momentum of one language, one religion, and, on normal spheres, one race. But this age is not perfect. These worlds still have well-appointed hospitals, homes for the care of the sick. There still remain the problems of caring for accidental injuries and the inescapable infirmities attendant upon the decrepitude of old age and the disorders of senility. Disease has not been entirely vanquished, neither have the earth animals been subdued in perfection; but such worlds are like Paradise in comparison with the early times of primitive man during the pre-Planetary Prince age. You would instinctively describe such a realm — could you be suddenly transported to a planet in this stage of development — as heaven on earth.

    55:5.1 (629.10) Mortal creatures living on a sin-stricken, evil-dominated, self-seeking, isolated world, such as Urantia, can hardly conceive of the physical perfection, the intellectual attainment, and the spiritual development which characterize these advanced epochs of evolution on a sinless sphere.

    55:5.2 (629.11) The advanced stages of a world settled in light and life represent the acme of evolutionary material development. On these cultured worlds, gone are the idleness and friction of the earlier primitive ages. Poverty and social inequality have all but vanished, degeneracy has disappeared, and delinquency is rarely observed. Insanity has practically ceased to exist, and feeble-mindedness is a rarity.

    55:5.3 (629.12) The economic, social, and administrative status of these worlds is of a high and perfected order. Science, art, and industry flourish, and society is a smoothly working mechanism of high material, intellectual, and cultural achievement. Industry has been largely diverted to serving the higher aims of such a superb civilization. The economic life of such a world has become ethical.

    55:5.4 (630.1) War has become a matter of history, and there are no more armies or police forces. Government is gradually disappearing. Self-control is slowly rendering laws of human enactment obsolete. The extent of civil government and statutory regulation, in an intermediate state of advancing civilization, is in inverse proportion to the morality and spirituality of the citizenship.

    55:5.5 (630.2) Schools are vastly improved and are devoted to the training of mind and the expansion of soul. The art centers are exquisite and the musical organizations superb. The temples of worship with their associated schools of philosophy and experiential religion are creations of beauty and grandeur. The open-air arenas of worship assembly are equally sublime in the simplicity of their artistic appointment.

     

    :good:    And this describes a mortal, material world….even from such a place, the Mansion Worlds are so much more and so much finer I am sure!  Even L&L leaves us some challenges of suffering….who suffers I wonder in heaven?

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  12. And thanks for pointing out that the personal repercussions of immaturity and mortal error do not make that journey so there is no carry-over of our suffering or mistakes….just more work to accomplish for some than for others in some ways but not all ways either….that’s why there’s 7 worlds of ministry, each with its particular ministries of personal progress!

    Did I say that?  I don’t think I did.

  13. Bradly wrote: . . . there is no carry-over of our suffering . . .

    Does anyone think Jesus “carried over” his suffering?  Is it part of his experience as a human being that stays with him into eternity?

    And how about our mistakes.  If we gain any wisdom from making those mistakes, will those experiences be “carried over” as part of our soul?

     

  14. And thanks for pointing out that the personal repercussions of immaturity and mortal error do not make that journey so there is no carry-over of our suffering or mistakes….just more work to accomplish for some than for others in some ways but not all ways either….that’s why there’s 7 worlds of ministry, each with its particular ministries of personal progress!

    Did I say that? I don’t think I did.

    Apologies for the misstatement Bonita….don’t mean to put words in your mouth…my bad.  As to my understanding of the conversation and the text posted as related to your questions:  “Does anyone think Jesus “carried over” his suffering?  Is it part of his experience as a human being that stays with him into eternity?  And how about our mistakes.  If we gain any wisdom from making those mistakes, will those experiences be “carried over” as part of our soul?”

    It is my understanding that only the positive, the reality realized, the maturity and experiences that delivered maturity and understanding – these all contribute to soul and the lessons learned and growth achieved therefrom ALL do carry-over….not the mistakes or errors themselves but the growth and wisdom gained do so survive.

    We are told that our immaturities and mortal foolishness and embarrassing moments (oh dear…how many of those do I have?  Too many.) will or may be part of our education and/or entertainment in reversion.  So it’s not as if all records or memories of such just vanish I don’t think.  But there should be no fear or anxieties or paranoia or any form of emotional/mental instabilities….I do not think.  So that which causes error/evil and the repercussions of error/evil do not survive to the Mansion Worlds (these are unrealities and temporal only) but the results of those which add to soul certainly do survive (again, according to my own understanding).

    I think Jesus most ‘suffered’ from his compassion for others who are suffering – but not so much the mortal trials and tribulations which he endured and triumphed over.  I think it obvious the Creator Sons all thusly ‘suffer’….an inaccurate portrayal and description IMO of such enduring love and compassion and understanding.

    I think the Mansion Worlds are transitionary, transitory, rehabilitative, educational, and inspirational.  It is the time between the material mind and the fused morontial mind.  I’ve read nothing in the Papers that make me even suspect that animal fear and its attendant poisons have any mechanism for survival or “…be carried over to the Mansions”.

    Indeed, I would say further that IMO some of the most dangerous imaginings I’ve read on the UB sites are by those despairing and dark minds which transfer the material and animal minded falsehoods onto the celestial abode and heaven to come.  This is a deep and lingering bias that distorts the Good News we have been presented….still making god in our own twisted images.

    Are we to trust Father….or not?  Is love the will and way of Father’s universe…or not?  Did Jesus lie or tell the truth when he, over and over and over again, said the Universe is friendly?  Let us trust the Lord.  Did not the Master teach that his gospel was joyful and should fill us with peace and confidence in all that is to come and all that is to be?  Yes….I believe He did!!

    ;-)

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

  15. But there should be no fear or anxieties or paranoia or any form of emotional/mental instabilities….I do not think.  So that which causes error/evil and the repercussions of error/evil do not survive to the Mansion Worlds . . .

    Do you think that certain immature habits of thinking some how manage to make it to the mansion worlds? Habits of thinking like the vestigial animal traits mentioned in quote 48:5.8? The ones that need to be eradicated. Use of the words vestigial and eradication seems to imply that these imperfect modes of thinking are part of the soul. If not, how else would they get “carried over”?

    48:5.8 One of the purposes of the morontia career is to effect the permanent eradication from the mortal survivors of such animal vestigial traits as procrastination, equivocation, insincerity, problem avoidance, unfairness, and ease seeking. The mansonia life early teaches the young morontia pupils that postponement is in no sense avoidance. After the life in the flesh, time is no longer available as a technique of dodging situations or of circumventing disagreeable obligations.

    In other words, if the animal mind is left behind, how is that we still have animal vestigial traits?

  16. In other words, if the animal mind is left behind, how is that we still have animal vestigial traits?

    Could it be due to it being transferred as a part of our unfinished or unfinalized personality, apart from our animal minds?

     

  17. In other words, if the animal mind is left behind, how is that we still have animal vestigial traits?

    Could it be due to it being transferred as a part of our unfinished or unfinalized personality, apart from our animal mind?

  18. In other words, if the animal mind is left behind, how is that we still have animal vestigial traits?

    Could it be due to it being transferred as a part of our unfinished or unfinalized personality, apart from our animal mind?

  19. See above. Oops.
  20. Apparently I am only now beginning to appreciate and understand BB’s inquiry here.  So I obviously misread the question.  The question is NOT ‘can errors be carried over’ BUT can one’s erroneous “way” be carried over.  It does help to understand the question.  Thanks Bonita for drilling ever-deeper into all topics and issues and related teachings!!  You shine.  Always make me think and reconsider my own perspective.  I am gaining comfort and confidence in my own confusions and uncertainties and learning to embrace them as simple learning tools and opportunities….if you’re not confused, you’re not paying attention!

    Okay….to the question.  IMO, we must consider the role that inexperience with and ignorance of REALITY plays in our Mansion World experience.  There is no ipso-facto gain in wisdom or experience or knowledge when awakened on the Mansion Worlds…we begin where we left off regarding soul content, reality adjustment, transfer of the seat of identity, Circle progress, discernment, knowledge, and wisdom.

    Apparently, by the quote posted above,  “…procrastination, equivocation, insincerity, problem avoidance, unfairness, and ease seeking….” are elements of inexperienced immaturity which require a weaning process to the degree that each of us embraces those vestiges.

    As pointed out…our immaturity will continue to lead to error, perhaps even to the degree of evil as we progress.  Perhaps some survive mortality and come to actually embrace sin?  I don’t see how given the situation.  However, survival does not equate to fusion and we are not given name and number until then so one must or may presume there is still potential for failure to attain the eternal estate?

    Anyway…thanks for the topic BB…glad I finally found my way TO the actual topic!!  :good:

    "Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."

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