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Are we to be Mighty Messengers

22 posts · 5 participants · started Feb 22, 2018, 4:46 PM

mehillParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 4:46 PM
I’m in a discussion with a colleague as to whether we become Mighty Messengers or not. My position is we don’t; we are, however, agondonters. Here are relevant quotes in the discussion and appreciate comments or insights:

My friend’s initial position:

^22:4.7 You mortals who read this message may yourselves ascend to Paradise, attain the Trinity embrace, and in remote future ages be attached to the service of the Ancients of Days in one of the seven superuniverses, and sometime be assigned to enlarge the revelation of truth to some evolving inhabited planet, even as I am now functioning on Urantia.

My response:

22:2.1 Mighty Messengers belong to the ascendant group of the Trinitized Sons. They are a class of perfected mortals who have been rebellion tested or otherwise equally proved as to their personal loyalty; all have passed through some definite test of universe allegiance. At some time in their Paradise ascent they stood firm and loyal in the face of the disloyalty of their superiors, and some did actively and loyally function in the places of such unfaithful leaders.

22:2.3 Every ascendant mortal of insurrectionary experience who functions loyally in the face of rebellion is eventually destined to become a Mighty Messenger of the superuniverse service. Likewise is any ascendant creature who effectively prevents such upheavals of error, evil, or sin; for action designed to prevent rebellion or to effect higher types of loyalty in a universe crisis is regarded as of even greater value than loyalty in the face of actual rebellion.

My call is that a mortal would have had to have been alive during an “insurrectionary experience”, such as the Lucifer Rebellion, either on 606 or a Mansion world and prior to fusion, in order to meet the criteria above. However, how does one explain my friend’s citation? What would be the circumstance in our ascendant lives that would meet the criteria?

Paper 22 was written by a Mighty Messenger.

Michael
Van AmadonParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 5:07 PM

mehill wrote:

how does one explain my friend’s citation? What would be the circumstance in our ascendant lives that would meet the criteria?

Hello Michael. It’s nice to have you participating in this little round table of UB discussion.

You ask a question I’ve pondered many times. This is my thinking about it.

Is atheism an insurrection against the authority and Supremacy of God?

I think it is.

How many people fail and falter in rebirthing themselves spiritually because of succumbing to its rebellious doctrine?

I am not sure if that qualifies as the experience the MM is referring to but perhaps it is.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
mehillParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 5:29 PM

Hi Van Amadon,

I think the author is pretty clear about an “insurrectionary experience” and being “rebellion tested” as prerequisites for future trinity embrace.

An insurrection is a rising up against authority or a government; rebellion is an open resistance to an established government.

So, I don’t think atheism, a lack of belief in God, is quite the same thing.

In the former situations, these are uprisings against the rule/word of law. I think of atheism as a personal position regarding God.

You refer to atheism as “a rebellious doctrine”. I don’t think of atheism as a “doctrine”, but rather a description of an individual’s religious point of view. I don’t think such an individual is rising up against God, that individual is denying or negating the truth of God.

However, if it may be as you say – how would holding a position of atheism apply? If one is an atheist, how does one become a Mighty Messenger because of it?

Michael
Van AmadonParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 5:55 PM

mehill wrote:

If one is an atheist, how does one become a Mighty Messenger because of it?

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear.

How I’m thinking about it is on a small scale. Perhaps that is a disqualification right there. Something tells me it is.

Let’s say you are a child of an atheist. And the flavor or “spirit” of the experience is one of rather high intensity. Unrelenting to the point of disownment if not complied with. Then for the kid, that’s a lot to overcome.

What do you think?
mehillParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 6:27 PM
Small scale, yes. And no, I don’t think it qualifies. I think we have to dig deeper to solve this one.

Given my friend’s citation’s opening statement: “You mortals who read this message may yourselves ascend to Paradise, attain the Trinity embrace”, must be referring to some possible future “insurrectionary experience” where we will be “rebellion tested” or “At some time in [our] Paradise ascent [we will stand] firm and loyal in the face of the disloyalty of [our]superiors”. And since this hinges on decision, I don’t think this could happen after we’re fused, but that’s just my inference; one’s “Paradise ascent” is a long journey.

However, since he uses the term “Paradise ascent” for me, it does invite consideration of activities outside Nebadon, in which case we would already fused and become first stage spirit beings.

We do know that Michael is a Master Son, possessing full sovereignty and authority over all Nebadon, we are also told that if there were another rebellion, Michael would not do anything differently; he would allow it to run its course. So maybe we’ll see some other such rebellion in Nebadon. Other than that possibility, I cannot imagine any such conditions existing outside of Nebadon in our Paradise ascent, but I’m always eager to hear the thoughts of others.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 6:31 PM
Wow, what a coincidence!! I was just thinking through this very question yesterday. I can actually see it both ways. I tend to side with mehill, but I have not committed myself to that viewpoint, and here’s why:

Until the adjudication of the rebellion is over and the entire system is restored to the constellation family, we’re technically still involved in an “insurrectionary experience”. Also, Caligastia is still free on this world to ” . . . prosecute his nefarious designs . . .”(53:8.6), and as long as that continues, further incitement of a new insurrection remains a possibility, I think. It’s safe to say that it still requires estimable loyalty to maintain faith under these circumstances. Is this enough to become a Mighty Messenger? I think much depends upon each individual and what they personally face as enticements to be disloyal. This applies not only to this lifetime, but the next as well. A new rebellion can break out elsewhere in the system before a person leaves to continue with their ascension journey.

And I don’t think fusion fully protects a person from rebellion either, since there is always free will and the potential for error, at least until finality when purpose is finally perfected. “The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.” (132:2.6) Moreover, TUB makes a point of praising the ascension plan when none of the fused citizens on Jerusem went into rebellion (note they made no mention of provisional citizens who have not yet fused). The author did not say this success was because of fusion, but rather touted the fact that no one rebelled as evidence, ” . . . that the survival experience of mortal ascension is the greatest security against rebellion and the surest safeguard against sin.”53:7.12.

So, I guess I’m saying that we don’t know for sure what is considered loyalty in the face of rebellion. How loyal? How rebellious? What’s at stake? How strong did the individual’s faith have to be to withstand the onslaught? How many people conspired against the individual and how convincing was the evil proposed? How grand was the scheme and how many people were positively impacted by the decision to remain loyal? I think there are too many variables to say with certainty that one of us living today will or will not become a Mighty Messenger. Maybe that’s because I harbor secret desires to become one myself . . . can’t say for sure. But it is interesting to ponder.
mehillParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 7:14 PM
Hi Bonita,

Sychronicity at large on 606!

You write,” Until the adjudication of the rebellion is over and the entire system is restored to the constellation family, we’re technically still involved in an “insurrectionary experience”.

While the rebels have not yet been adjudicated, 53:8.3 “The bestowal of Michael terminated the Lucifer rebellion in all Satania aside from the planets of the apostate Planetary Princes.” And 53:9.7 “The rebellion has ended on Jerusem. It ends on the fallen worlds as fast as divine Sons arrive.” Michael, a divine son, has been on our planet, so it looks pretty clear to me that the Lucifer rebellion is over for we Urantians.

I think the “insurrectionary experience” ended when the last personality in Satania made up his/her mind which side to align with. Only then did the Most Highs step in, as I recall.

I do agree with you that another uprising could occur, but that would be on a celestial level and Lord knows they are working against the tides of rebellion and default with enough tenacity to never go down that road again. That’s my call. It is conceivable that a rebellion could break out on another planet or system in Nebadon, but how would that affect us? How could that make us eligible for the Trinity embrace? I don’t think it would; our leaders are a pretty steadfast group, methinks, and give wide berth to such an event, were it to happen.

It is my understanding that no father-fused mortal has ever gone astray (rebelled – how could he?). Your quote on the matter does allow for continued free will, and until we achieve “final spirit levels” may experience sin or evil, but never iniquity, which is a hallmark of rebellion, I think.

As to what is loyalty in this context? I think it goes back to my comment above about making that final decision to side with Michael.

I wonder, 250,000 years ago, how many mortals on Urantia were even aware of Lucifer’s rebellion or Caligastia’s allegiance to him and thus would even know there was a decision to make? I think really only the Prince’s staff. Will Amadon be a MM? He was a “modified human associate”. Gives me goosebumps when I think about him and Van. My goodness, such loyalty.

Yes, much to ponder, but it is a good question, I think.

As to attaining the Trinity embrace? I’m not so sure that’s for me; it means an eternity (well, from the perspective of the current age) of service to the Ancients of Days and not being in the Corps of Mortal Finality.

I am desirous of taking the greatest advantage of my mortal career as I can as well as that of my career as a morontia progressor. I’ll never be this imperfect again (and I’ll be perfect for eternity) so I want to experience the broadest, deepest, widest such a life as I can whilst here. I’d even like to join-up with a Material Son and Daughter for that experience. Funny how we 606ers are with our new-found revelatory knowledge to think such things. In the end, of course, it’s whatever my Father wants; he’s got a much better plan for me than I could ever imagine.

Michael
BonitaParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 8:35 PM

mehill wrote:

While the rebels have not yet been adjudicated, 53:8.3 “The bestowal of Michael terminated the Lucifer rebellion in all Satania aside from the planets of the apostate Planetary Princes.” And 53:9.7 “The rebellion has ended on Jerusem. It ends on the fallen worlds as fast as divine Sons arrive.” Michael, a divine son, has been on our planet, so it looks pretty clear to me that the Lucifer rebellion is over for we Urantians.

I knew you would bring that up, but the quote says, “. . . aside from the planets of the apostate Planetary Princes.” I take that to mean “apart from” those planets who have an apostate Prince, which would be Urantia, whose Prince is actually still living here. In other quotes about ending the rebellion, the authors take care to use the word technically and the phrase in principle (53:8.4; 120:2.2;158:0.1) I suppose those words can mean a number of things, but until the whole affair is adjudicated and the isolation/quarantine is ended, I think there are technicalities worth considering when it comes to loyalty. In this next quote we’re told that both rebels and rebellion will eventually end, but not until the Supreme Rulers say so.

(529.3) 46:8.4 There will come an end for rebels and rebellion. The Supreme Rulers are merciful and patient, but the law of deliberately nourished evil is universally and unerringly executed. “The wages of sin is death” — eternal obliteration.

All that being said, I do agree that for anyone who embraces the Spirit of Truth and follows Adjuster guidance, the rebellion and isolation are over. Yet loyalties continue to be tested all the way to Paradise.

mehill wrote:

I think the “insurrectionary experience” ended when the last personality in Satania made up his/her mind which side to align with. Only then did the Most Highs step in, as I recall.

You’ll probably think I’m splitting hairs here, which I may be, but the last personality has still not made up his mind. Lucifer and many of his minions are still alive and have not completely made up their minds. When they do, then we can consider the situation adjudicated. Note in the quotes below that the perpetrators have to accept the verdict before they are annihilated. And what’s more, the second quote says that all their supporters and possible sympathizers must also come to the point where all their moral values and spiritual realities are extinct. I think that means they would also have to accept the verdict. I think we’re far from that point since there are so many sympathizers of Lucifer alive on this planet even today.

(615.4) 54:3.2 Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty — the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil — a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual’s universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.

(615.5) 54:3.3 But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.

mehill wrote:

It is my understanding that no father-fused mortal has ever gone astray (rebelled – how could he?). Your quote on the matter does allow for continued free will, and until we achieve “final spirit levels” may experience sin or evil, but never iniquity, which is a hallmark of rebellion, I think.

I can see that both ways too. I think rebellion must be conscious and conscious rebellion can run the gamut from confusion to resistance, to refusal, and finally to warfare. Obviously the consequences will differ, but evil is a subtle form of rebellion, as is sin. TUB defines sin as deliberate disloyalty and disloyalty is a species of rebellion.

(984.5) 89:10.2 Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals.

mehill wrote:Will Amadon be a MM? He was a “modified human associate”. Gives me goosebumps when I think about him and Van. My goodness, such loyalty.

Van’s the first person I think of when considering the type of loyalty necessary to become a Might Messenger. His loyalty was supreme!

mehill wrote:I’ll never be this imperfect again (and I’ll be perfect for eternity) so I want to experience the broadest, deepest, widest such a life as I can whilst here.

That’s funny! I should embrace my imperfection because, if all goes according to plan, I’ll never be this screwed up ever again. That’s actually a relief, both to me, my family and my friends. But I’ll split another hair with you. You’ll never be perfect, neither will I. The best we can hope for is to become perfected. Big difference. Sorry for the technicality.
mehillParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 9:50 PM
Bonita,

Great comments!

Is it not a consideration that Michael is now our Planetary Prince? Doesn’t this ‘end’ the rebellion on this planet? I doubt the other rebellious planets are not so blessed to have a divine son as their Planetary Prince; who do you suppose is in charge of each of those worlds? What about the quote, “It [rebellion] ends on the fallen worlds as fast as divine Sons arrive.” Doesn’t Michael satisfy?

You think that Lucifer has not made up his mind – what’s left of it? I think his spurning of Michael’s overtures of forgiveness pretty much settled the matter for him. He ain’t a-turning back. I think his mind is obsessed with evil – anything to thwart any effort associated with Michael. I think at this point, pretty much all associated with the rebellion have staked their lots. You seem to think otherwise? How so?

Yes, I agree there are “Satanists” running around the planet today, but I think even after the adjudication of the rebels, there will be such folk – misguided and iniquitous. We 606ers have a ways to go to get out of the aftermath of rebellion and default, methinks. Unless, of course we get an Avonal Son or Michael returns, but I don’t think either will happen for hundreds if not thousands of years.

But to the question of satisfying the conditions for Trinity embrace: “insurrectionary experience” and “rebellion tested” are you suggesting such conditions are still present on 606?

You write about the last personality hasn’t made up his mind. When do you think was the “last personality” eligible for trinity embrace born? Or do you think they are still being born? I think the ice is very, very thin here.

I think the FER provides an enormous opportunity for spiritual change in the minds of Urantians, and until that has played out, I don’t anticipate any celestial intervention. It’s quite an experiment: Let’s see what they (us) do when we give them a printed revelation of the gospel and more!

LOL… you must have a hidden desire to be a hairdresser! Yes, of course on Van – and we’ll see. And yes on “perfected” vs perfect, but I’m not sure I know the difference other than origin of perfection. Do we say that those created perfect such as Havona natives are better/not better than mortals who have achieved perfection? While the roads are different, the results (in this age) are the same, no? Are we not destined to fulfill, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.” Is not the perfection of man the fulfillment of the Father’s will?

But I think we’re straying from solving the posited situation – that we are not eligible to become Mighty Messengers, yet some disagree pointing to 22:2.7 “You mortals who read this message may yourselves ascend to Paradise, attain the Trinity embrace”. We should try and formulate a final statement about this conundrum. You go first! (

As an aside…

I just joined this forum this morning and I must say, I have enjoyed a wonderful time of discussion with you and Van Amadon. I have the sense that both of you are on here a lot.
BradlyParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 10:26 PM
Greetings Michael….and Welcome!

Been thinking on this since your post and, like Bonita, felt I could argue either side of this ‘debate’ between you and your colleague. But upon reflection, I think I’ll take your friend’s side in this one. Perhaps wishful thinking…quite an adventure, that of the Mighty Messengers!

But I also have a wrinkle or twist of my own to contribute to whatever confusion or consternation we might all share here together. For example, not long ago I would have proposed that becoming an agondonter or being an agondonter/finaliter candidate would require more than a simple flicker and soul survival to the Mansion Worlds.

I mean, while I may personally believe and assert that there are more flickering survivors than not due to Divinity’s patience and mercy ministry and paternal affection for us all, still, can an Agondonter really come from a soul whose mortal mind of origin does not truly choose rebirth and to be born again in sufficient deliberate and conscious response to the Spirit(s) within, and dies with significant material attachment and a minimum of personal identity transfer, really become an Agondonter?

Lately, I am beginning to think so, yes. In several topics here lately, I have been learning much about faith experience and expressions that have resulted in more generosity on my part as to the potential for Circle Progress and the spiritization/spiritualization of mortals from Urantia and all worlds “…deprived of the beneficent presence and influence of such superhuman personalities as a Planetary Prince and a Material Son and Daughter.” (see quote below)

If children and primitives respond to the Spirit within sufficiently to give birth to soul and if faith can be experienced and expressed by the most savage and ignorant and misguided and foolish and blind and dumb amongst us as such is clearly described in the UB (see Papers 85-92) and if the soul can actually grow and worship in ways unbeknownst to the mortal mind, if all of this is true…….then yes, I think even the slumbering ones and the souls of but a flicker are likely agondonters.

And if all this is true, then are we not also “…those of you who read this message may yourselves….”

I mean…why tell us of agondonters if not our own potential destiny? And why say “those of you who read this” if not also our potential destiny? It’s not relevant or important information if not applicable to us students of the Revelation? The Revelation does not contain all facts and knowledge….but it does contain very specific fact and knowledge to inspire and educate and guide us forward INTO our destiny potentials I think. So I do think we are eligible for agondonterhood, Trinity embrace, creature Trinitization experience as co-creators, and the Mighty Messenger service….all of that based on our ascension experience from Urantia. But just another opinion after all…….

7. The Rewards of Isolation

50:7.1 (578.6) On first thought it might appear that Urantia and its associated isolated worlds are most unfortunate in being deprived of the beneficent presence and influence of such superhuman personalities as a Planetary Prince and a Material Son and Daughter. But isolation of these spheres affords their races a unique opportunity for the exercise of faith and for the development of a peculiar quality of confidence in cosmic reliability which is not dependent on sight or any other material consideration. It may turn out, eventually, that mortal creatures hailing from the worlds quarantined in consequence of rebellion are extremely fortunate. We have discovered that such ascenders are very early intrusted with numerous special assignments to cosmic undertakings where unquestioned faith and sublime confidence are essential to achievement.

50:7.2 (579.1) On Jerusem the ascenders from these isolated worlds occupy a residential sector by themselves and are known as the agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone. This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona but promptly reappears upon the attainment of Paradise and definitely persists in the Corps of the Mortal Finality. Tabamantia is an agondonter of finaliter status, having survived from one of the quarantined spheres involved in the first rebellion ever to take place in the universes of time and space.

Me here: notice above the title is rewards of “isolation”, not rebellion. And also note that it is only the world or origin measured and described….not the Circle Status or personal expressions or transfer of the seat of identity while still on the world of birth/origin. Nope. It is only the world of origin itself that appears to be the measure of eligibility.

As Bonita points out….the meaning of standing loyal and firm in the face of the disloyalty of superiors is an interesting description….is Caligastia my superior? I have no material examples or leaders or rulers to guide me or instruct me….is there a difference between suffering from isolation and standing loyal and firm?

And what of those primitives from the earlier Mortal Epochs also without material example and leadership. And as you say and inquire, most of Urantia’s population, even during the Prince’s reign prior to rebellion, did also not have any true material examples.

Plenty of room for argument all the way around this one I think.

Glad you’re here Michael….really appreciate the brain tickler. And did I lose my agondonter ticket when the UB found me? Oh dear!

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
mehillParticipant
Feb 22, 2018, 11:53 PM
Bradley,

Thank you, and nice to meet you.

Choice of words…not so much to argue one side or the other, but rather to unravel the apparent mystery of it, to dive deeply into all we’re given to see if we can find a situation that resolves the seeming disparity between the major citations.

I rest my case on what I consider the fact that I am not in an “insurrectionary experience” but rather in the consequences of one. And that I am not (currently) “rebellion tested”. I may be in the future, but it’s hard for me to construct a situation where I could. And then the question: is one outside of the loop of Trinity embrace if one is fused? Isn’t that the ultimate decision?

Re: Agondonters…I think if you come from 606 and wake up on Mansonia #1 you’re an agondonter. As to whether you’ll enjoy the benefits of that category still depends on fusion. What led to you think there would need to be more than just the “simple flicker” of soul survival? For heaven’s sake, hasn’t life on a 606 been more than just a tad bleak for us the spiritually hungry?

I recall that for mortals on 606 “Survival decisions must here be formulated. “whatever that means. I consider that to be the “flicker”, or just barely; at least not rejecting. I think that’s all it takes – a flicker. There’s still a mountain of challenge to overcome on the probationary worlds. I wonder how many on M1 decide to pass on eternity.

As to birth of the soul…that’s pretty easy as a five year old. I think it’s whether that soul is deprived of all nourishment; selfishness overrides all influences – all adjuster leading is dismissed such that there’s no party for you on M1.

But I don’t see any of this as applying to being eligible for Trinity embrace. I’ve stated what I understand to be the two conditions for such and neither includes agondonter status or ‘flicker’. Having a flicker isn’t enough to get to MM potential, from all the quotes we’ve posted.

You write, “And why say “those of you who read this” if not also our potential destiny? “ Well, that is the conundrum. What is the circumstance for us who “read this” whereby we could become MMs given the conditions for it in the first place, which I contend are not present in my lifetime?

Isolation: It’s a consequence of rebellion, as I see it.

Loyalty: Caligastia is deposed. Michael’s our titular boss now. Yes, I know all the other folks who take charge and run the show, but he’s our Planetary Prince, which for me decides the issue of termination of the rebellion on 606.

In the circumstance presented, the standing loyal in the face of “disloyalty of superiors”, there is a big difference between being tested in a situation where one’s visible leader denounces a universe creator and on the other, not having any celestial presence on the planet.

Lost ticket: LOL…no, not to worry. I think even if someone celestial did show up before we graduate, we’re secure in our faith sufficiently to guarantee our ag residences along the way.

Best cheers, and thanks for the fun response!

Michael

PS: It snowed here last night, and while there’s not much left on the ground, it’s barely hit 40 outside so plenty of time for these musings, which are quite enjoyable. I see you’ve been quite active on these forums. I need to post something in my profile as you have done.
GeneParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 12:22 AM
Curious about future assignments. What if I desire to take up the duties of mighty Messenger and fulfilled the faith and other prerequisite testing? Would I be denied?

may I attempt to tie this really cool quote in from paper 13:3

“High spirit personalities are not given to the gratification of purposeless curiosity, purely useless adventure. There is at all times altogether too much intriguing and pur- poseful adventure to permit the development of any great interest in those proj- ects which are either futile or unreal”

I realize the quote may be a stretch on this topic but it intrigues me in regard to “desired” careers and while im far from a high spirit personality it suggests that later in our ascension careers we may have the flexibility to choose our assignments with the full and accurate knowledge that we possess the wisdom and experience required.

Even on Urantia in my working careers, I have never applied for a job that I knew I was not qualified for. Should be a no-brained as we ascend off this planet, no?

who decides these things anyway?
BonitaParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 12:47 AM

mehill wrote:

Is it not a consideration that Michael is now our Planetary Prince?

Yes, Michael is currently our Planetary Prince, but he is not functioning as such. I think Machiventa currently has that responsibility as vicegerent and he has allowed the Jerusem council of twenty-four to continue governing rather than shake things up.

mehill wrote:

You think that Lucifer has not made up his mind – what’s left of it? I think his spurning of Michael’s overtures of forgiveness pretty much settled the matter for him. He ain’t a-turning back. I think his mind is obsessed with evil – anything to thwart any effort associated with Michael. I think at this point, pretty much all associated with the rebellion have staked their lots. You seem to think otherwise? How so?

What I’m saying is that I’m not clear that Lucifer and his associates, supporters and sympathizers have accepted annihilation. Until they do, they’ll live on. I agree, I don’t think Lucifer will change his mind, but he has to come to the point where he accepts the consequences of his actions. There has to be a point where he accepts the inevitable justice of the Ancients as fair. Personally, because of his stubbornness, I don’t see this as coming anytime soon, which leaves us in that precarious place of having to wait for time to work its magic. Meanwhile, we have a stinker named Caligastia who seems to love creating chaos. It’s his middle name.

mehill wrote:But to the question of satisfying the conditions for Trinity embrace: “insurrectionary experience” and “rebellion tested” are you suggesting such conditions are still present on 606?

I really don’t know. What is the threshold for insurrectionary experience? The authors of TUB aren’t really specific about that, which is why I haven’t made my mind up about it. I could see it go either way.

mehill wrote:

You write about the last personality hasn’t made up his mind. When do you think was the “last personality” eligible for trinity embrace born? Or do you think they are still being born? I think the ice is very, very thin here.

I’m sorry, I don’t understand the question. I was talking about the last personality involved in the rebellion.

mehill wrote:

Do we say that those created perfect such as Havona natives are better/not better than mortals who have achieved perfection? While the roads are different, the results (in this age) are the same, no?

No, I don’t think it’s the same. If it is the same, why would TUB include this paragraph about perfect beings being so different from us, the perfected:

p52:3 3:5.17 The creatures of Havona are naturally brave, but they are not courageous in the human sense. They are innately kind and considerate, but hardly altruistic in the human way. They are expectant of a pleasant future, but not hopeful in the exquisite manner of the trusting mortal of the uncertain evolutionary spheres. They have faith in the stability of the universe, but they are utter strangers to that saving faith whereby mortal man climbs from the status of an animal up to the portals of Paradise. They love the truth, but they know nothing of its soul-saving qualities. They are idealists, but they were born that way; they are wholly ignorant of the ecstasy of becoming such by exhilarating choice. They are loyal, but they have never experienced the thrill of wholehearted and intelligent devotion to duty in the face of temptation to default. They are unselfish, but they never gained such levels of experience by the magnificent conquest of a belligerent self. They enjoy pleasure, but they do not comprehend the sweetness of the pleasure escape from the pain potential.

mehill wrote:

LOL… you must have a hidden desire to be a hairdresser!

WHOA!! That’s eerie. How did you know that I’ve been cutting my own hair for the last seven months? I got tired of spending hundreds of dollars only to come home and have to “fix it”. So yeah, I guess I do have a hidden desire to be a hairdresser. Weird. Really weird.

mehill wrote:

I just joined this forum this morning and I must say, I have enjoyed a wonderful time of discussion with you and Van Amadon. I have the sense that both of you are on here a lot.

Oh, well welcome. It’s nice to have new people to talk to. Yeah . . . been here forever. Lots of folks come and go. Hope you stay.
mehillParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 12:54 AM
Gene,

The duties of a MM require attaining the Trinity embrace, so that’s your first hurdle, which takes us back to living in an “insurrectionary experience” and having been “rebellion tested”, but you’ve read all that, above.

My recollection is that on the mansion worlds various careers are presented to us to choose based on a true and genuine assessment of everything about us. There is a plan and our place in that plan is divinely derived. Earthly free will to move about as you describe (and I have done) I don’t think is available to us after graduation.

As to “who decides these things” depends on the point of reference. We have choice, albeit limited, so as regards deciding things about ourselves in your context – we decide, but remember prior to fusion, we have direct access to our adjusters, so I think we’d probably have a chat with them before making decisions. BTW, it’s the Ancients of Days who decide if we fuse, or rather when we’re ready, as I recall.

Michael
mehillParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 1:47 AM
Bonita,

How do you do your formatting? I use this style in emails, but how do I get the “bonita wrote” and as a hyperlink and the indentations? I’ll use different fonts, italics and see how that works/looks.

mehill wrote: Is it not a consideration that Michael is now our Planetary Prince?

Yes, Michael is currently our Planetary Prince, but he is not functioning as such. I think Machiventa currently has that responsibility as vicegerent and he has allowed the Jerusem council of twenty-four to continue governing rather than shake things up.

Yes, true, but the citation states that a rebellion has ended with the arrival of a divine son. Arrived. Ended. That was the issue I thought we were addressing – when the rebellion ended. 53:9.7 The rebellion has ended on Jerusem. It ends on the fallen worlds as fast as divine Sons arrive. We believe that all rebels who will ever accept mercy have done so.

And the second sentence is a response to your earlier comment about folks not deciding as below:

mehill wrote: You think that Lucifer has not made up his mind – what’s left of it? I think his spurning of Michael’s overtures of forgiveness pretty much settled the matter for him. He ain’t a-turning back. I think his mind is obsessed with evil – anything to thwart any effort associated with Michael. I think at this point, pretty much all associated with the rebellion have staked their lots. You seem to think otherwise? How so?

What I’m saying is that I’m not clear that Lucifer and his associates, supporters and sympathizers have accepted annihilation. Until they do, they’ll live on. I agree, I don’t think Lucifer will change his mind, but he has to come to the point where he accepts the consequences of his actions. There has to be a point where he accepts the inevitable justice of the Ancients as fair. Personally, because of his stubbornness, I don’t see this as coming anytime soon, which leaves us in that precarious place of having to wait for time to work its magic. Meanwhile, we have a stinker named Caligastia who seems to love creating chaos. It’s his middle name.

I agree that really no one has accepted annihilation as it has not yet been adjudicated that such shall be the sentence. I think you’re suggesting that as long as Lucifer (or really any of the arch-rebels lives, we’re still in an “insurrectionary experience”); if so, I disagree with that. The quote above says “the rebellion has ended on Jerusem” and there are other such citations in the Jesus papers. It’s over. But I think you disagree with me on this. I do think once the AoD pass judgment he’ll take it.

mehill wrote:But to the question of satisfying the conditions for Trinity embrace: “insurrectionary experience” and “rebellion tested” are you suggesting such conditions are still present on 606?

I really don’t know. What is the threshold for insurrectionary experience? The authors of TUB aren’t really specific about that, which is why I haven’t made my mind up about it. I could see it go either way.

Using the dictionary definition works and the context in which the words are used gives meaning. A superior defies his divine superior and viola we have rebellion.

mehill wrote:You write about the last personality hasn’t made up his mind. When do you think was the “last personality” eligible for trinity embrace was born? Or do you think they are still being born? I think the ice is very, very thin here.

I’m sorry, I don’t understand the question. I was talking about the last personality involved in the rebellion.

If you are saying that we’re not involved in the rebellion!? Then what’s your point? The issue is are we or are we not eligible for Trinity embrace. Since we’re not in an “insurrectionary experience” or faced with the option of being “rebellion tested”, how can it be that we “mortals who read this message may [ourselves] ascend to Paradise, attain the Trinity embrace”. That’s the square one question.

mehill wrote:Do we say that those created perfect such as Havona natives are better/not better than mortals who have achieved perfection? While the roads are different, the results (in this age) are the same, no?

No, I don’t think it’s the same. If it is the same, why would TUB include this paragraph about perfect beings being so different from us, the perfected:

p52:3 3:5.17 The creatures of Havona are naturally brave, but they are not courageous in the human sense. They are innately kind and considerate, but hardly altruistic in the human way. They are expectant of a pleasant future, but not hopeful in the exquisite manner of the trusting mortal of the uncertain evolutionary spheres. They have faith in the stability of the universe, but they are utter strangers to that saving faith whereby mortal man climbs from the status of an animal up to the portals of Paradise. They love the truth, but they know nothing of its soul-saving qualities. They are idealists, but they were born that way; they are wholly ignorant of the ecstasy of becoming such by exhilarating choice. They are loyal, but they have never experienced the thrill of wholehearted and intelligent devotion to duty in the face of temptation to default. They are unselfish, but they never gained such levels of experience by the magnificent conquest of a belligerent self. They enjoy pleasure, but they do not comprehend the sweetness of the pleasure escape from the pain potential.

I see these as varying characteristics of perfection and I suspect they are different for each created perfect being as well as each perfected being. After all, isn’t perfection (however attained) living the Father’s will as one earnestly perceives/understands it? Isn’t the whole idea of personality to have a huge, wonderful mix (one might an infinite mix) of folks each manifesting a personal interpretation of God’s will. Cool!

Only ascendant creatures have souls.

mehill wrote:LOL… you must have a hidden desire to be a hairdresser!

WHOA!! That’s eerie. How did you know that I’ve been cutting my own hair for the last seven months? I got tired of spending hundreds of dollars only to come home and have to “fix it”. So yeah, I guess I do have a hidden desire to be a hairdresser. Weird. Really weird.

Life is a mystery.

mehill wrote:I just joined this forum this morning and I must say, I have enjoyed a wonderful time of discussion with you and Van Amadon. I have the sense that both of you are on here a lot.

Oh, well welcome. It’s nice to have new people to talk to. Yeah . . . been here forever. Lots of folks come and go. Hope you stay.

Thanks! It snowed here last night and it’s still pretty cold outside, so it’s been an inside day for me. I can’t recall the last time I spent this much time on the computer! But it is enjoyable. So far I’ve met three – you, Van Amadon, and Bradley. Wonder if anyone else will show up with a proposed solution to our conundrum.

Michael
GeneParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 3:41 AM

mehill wrote:

Gene, The duties of a MM require attaining the Trinity embrace, so that’s your first hurdle, which takes us back to living in an “insurrectionary experience” and having been “rebellion tested”, but you’ve read all that, above. My recollection is that on the mansion worlds various careers are presented to us to choose based on a true and genuine assessment of everything about us. There is a plan and our place in that plan is divinely derived. Earthly free will to move about as you describe (and I have done) I don’t think is available to us after graduation. As to “who decides these things” depends on the point of reference. We have choice, albeit limited, so as regards deciding things about ourselves in your context – we decide, but remember prior to fusion, we have direct access to our adjusters, so I think we’d probably have a chat with them before making decisions. BTW, it’s the Ancients of Days who decide if we fuse, or rather when we’re ready, as I recall. Michael

i don’t believe we need our adjusters permission to realize our spiritual ideals. Again, if MM is your ideal, what’s to stop you in a universe that encourages realizing our spiritual ideals? The only limit I see is self imposed. Once an ideal becomes a goal, getting there, satisfying prerequisites, is just part of the job.

so who really is steering the ship.

a good pilot knows his limits. If MM requires rebellion type experience And it’s lacking, it’s not a realistic ideal and the pilot should know it.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 12:27 PM
I’m having a lot of trouble following the formatting in your last post Michael, so I’m not sure how best to present my answers to all your questions. I’ll try to sum up a few things from my perspective. First, I don’t agree or disagree with you. My opinion is that the rebellion/insurrection situation can thought of either way. But, I cannot distrust the Mighty Messenger who wrote the message below. If he wrote it, as far as I’m concerned, it’s true. Period. I don’t feel a need to parse his meaning. I trust that this is something that may happen to me, as is written. Will it happen? How the heck could I possibly know that? Likewise, how could I possibly know the reasons it could be denied me? I’m simply satisfied with my superior telling me it’s possible. If he were here, I’d ask him to explain the details, but I don’t enjoy that option.

(247.6) 22:4.7 You mortals who read this message may yourselves ascend to Paradise, attain the Trinity embrace, and in remote future ages be attached to the service of the Ancients of Days in one of the seven superuniverses, and sometime be assigned to enlarge the revelation of truth to some evolving inhabited planet, even as I am now functioning on Urantia.

Whether or not the rebellion is completely over or technically over is a matter of viewpoint. I agree that the control of this planet has been removed from the rebels, but the problem of sympathizers inciting ongoing rebellion is not over. The effects of rebellion are not a problem for the spiritual life of the individual, but for the planet itself, rebellion is still an issue. I’d say that if you consider only yourself, then the insurrectionary experience is over. But if you consider the planet and the brotherhood of man, then the insurrectionary experience is not over. There is much work to be done.

It’s the business of our Sovereign Michael to spiritually stabilize his universe. To do so requires the loyalty and devotion of every citizen within it. Wherever and whenever there is disloyalty, there is instability. As a loyal and devoted member of this universe, my purpose is to stand strong against all influences contrary to my Sovereign. On this planet, those influences are everywhere and all the time. But it’s not enough to stand against, I must be willing to aggressively work toward my Sovereign’s goal despite all the naysayers and resisters. Is that an insurrectionary experience? I don’t know. I think it could be depending on how hard I work at it and how coordinated the offense is determined to stop me. But that decision is above my pay grade, as they say.

(241.1) 21:5.7 The elevation of a sevenfold bestowal Son to the unquestioned sovereignty of his universe means the beginning of the end of agelong uncertainty and relative confusion. Subsequent to this event, that which cannot be sometime spiritualized will eventually be disorganized; that which cannot be sometime co-ordinated with cosmic reality will eventually be destroyed. When the provisions of endless mercy and nameless patience have been exhausted in an effort to win the loyalty and devotion of the will creatures of the realms, justice and righteousness will prevail. That which mercy cannot rehabilitate justice will eventually annihilate.

I think I’ll address other issues in separate posts, otherwise they get so long no one wants to read them. As for formatting, what you do is highlight the part of my post you want to appear in your dialogue box, then scroll to the top of my post and hit the word quote in the upper right corner. Only the highlighted text will appear in your dialogue box with the “Bonita wrote” link in front of it, and it will be indented as a quote. When you hit the return button to start your reply it will also be indented unless you hit the quote icon at the top of your dialogue box, which will bring your margin back to the left. Hope I explained that well enough.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 12:57 PM
Prerequisites for becoming a Mighty Messenger include prevention of rebellion or effecting higher types of loyalty in the face of such. I think it’s safe to say that this planet is still suffering from a universe crisis since we’re still isolated and quarantined. Which means, it is also possible that those of us who read 22:4.7 may have played a part in preventing further rebellion or possibly displayed a higher type of loyalty for others to witness and emulate. I think Mighty Messenger status is more about loyalty to Michael, than about rebellion. Tests of loyalty take all different forms.

(245.1) 22:2.1 Mighty Messengers belong to the ascendant group of the Trinitized Sons. They are a class of perfected mortals who have been rebellion tested or otherwise equally proved as to their personal loyalty; all have passed through some definite test of universe allegiance. At some time in their Paradise ascent they stood firm and loyal in the face of the disloyalty of their superiors, and some did actively and loyally function in the places of such unfaithful leaders.

(245.3) 22:2.3 Every ascendant mortal of insurrectionary experience who functions loyally in the face of rebellion is eventually destined to become a Mighty Messenger of the superuniverse service. Likewise is any ascendant creature who effectively prevents such upheavals of error, evil, or sin; for action designed to prevent rebellion or to effect higher types of loyalty in a universe crisis is regarded as of even greater value than loyalty in the face of actual rebellion.
BonitaParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 1:26 PM

mehill wrote:

Earthly free will to move about as you describe (and I have done) I don’t think is available to us after graduation.

As I understand it, free will is relative but expanding. The greater our self-mastery and trustworthiness, the more liberties we have for choosing. If it’s true that we are only able to make choices of what we are conscious of, then expanding cosmic consciousness should increase our options. Also, as we become better at recognizing and choosing the Father’s will, limits for choice expand accordingly, since what a son desires and the Father wills to be, happens. Period.

Some related quotes: 28:6.16; 34:3.8; 54:1.1-10; 118:6.4-5; 118:8.1; 118:9.2
mehillParticipant
Feb 23, 2018, 3:38 PM
Gene,

I’m not at all suggesting that we “need our adjuster’s permission” for anything. I don’t adjusters give permission. I think they say, “here’s the right way”; the choice is always ours.

I don’t think having an ideal to do something you’re not eligible for makes a lot of sense.

Steering the ship…which ship? The individual’s? For that we’re told, 111:1.9 Mind is your ship, the Adjuster is your pilot, the human will is captain. The master of the mortal vessel should have the wisdom to trust the divine pilot to guide the ascending soul into the morontia harbors of eternal survival.”

Michael

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