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Abiram and Segub

80 posts · 14 participants · started Jul 23, 2016, 7:15 AM

Van AmadonParticipant
Jul 24, 2016, 10:02 AM

174:4:6[#4]

When no more questions were forthcoming, and as the noon hour was near, Jesus did not resume his teaching but was content merely to ask the Pharisees and their associates a question. Said Jesus: “Since you ask no more questions, I would like to ask you one. What do you think of the Deliverer? That is, whose son is he?” After a brief pause one of the scribes answered, “The Messiah is the son of David.” And since Jesus knew that there had been much debate, even among his own disciples, as to whether or not he was the son of David, he asked this further question: “If the Deliverer is indeed the son of David, how is it that, in the Psalm which you accredit to David, he himself, speaking in the spirit, says, ‘The Lord said to my lord, sit on my right hand until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet.’ If David calls him Lord, how then can he be his son?” Although the rulers, the scribes, and the chief priests made no reply to this question, they likewise refrained from asking him any more questions in an effort to entangle him. They never answered this question which Jesus put to them, but after the Master’s death they attempted to escape the difficulty by changing the interpretation of this Psalm so as to make it refer to Abraham instead of the Messiah. Others sought to escape the dilemma by disallowing that David was the author of this so-called Messianic Psalm.

Forgive me Chuck, but I’m wondering if you haven’t fallen into a similar scriptural trap as the one described above.
BonitaParticipant
Jul 24, 2016, 1:25 PM

Andre Traversa wrote: So, not only did Hiel offer his two sons as foundation sacrifices, but according to the UB, the Old Testament writer has God endorsing it.

Not sure how Andre arrived at that conclusion. TUB says that the people who built Jericho reverted to believing in a pagan god, probably Baal, who endorsed child sacrifice. Moses, of course did not endorse such a thing, which TUB clearly states.

Andre Traversa wrote: First, where is the evidence that the priests in Babylon rewrote the OT? I have yet to find any scholarly evidence to support this claim. Was I supposed to just accept it at face value as “revelation,” just because it was in the Urantia Book?

I don’t know what Andre is reading, but every biblical scholar I have read dates the Old Testament to the post-exilic period, which is when the Jews were in Babylon. From wikipedia:

The majority of modern biblical scholars believe that the Torah reached its present form in the post-Exilic period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible:

Andre Traversa wrote: Because God gave Jericho into the hands of the Israelites as a gift when He brought down the walls. The Jews did not take Jericho from the Canaanites by their own power; rather, God gave it to them by His power and His grace, its ruins forever serving as evidence of God’s judgment on the evil Canaanites. God had conquered the land of Canaan and had given it to the Israelites as a gift. Rebuilding Jericho was a slap in the face to God.

This passage is extremely revealing. Andre appears to be a devout adherent of the organized and racial religion of Judaism. He believes that God favored the Jews over the Canaanites and helped to drive out the Canaanites. We know that God would never punish one race of people and reward another. It must have really upset Andre to read in TUB that the Hebrews never drove the Canaanites out of Palestine but actually mated with them combined their two races into one.

97:9.1 There never were twelve tribes of the Israelites — only three or four tribes settled in Palestine. The Hebrew nation came into being as the result of the union of the so-called Israelites and the Canaanites. “And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites. And they took their daughters to be their wives and gave their daughters to the sons of the Canaanites.” The Hebrews never drove the Canaanites out of Palestine, notwithstanding that the priests’ record of these things unhesitatingly declared that they did.

Not everyone is open minded enough to embrace revelation, and that is fine. It is safer to hold onto ancient wisdom than to courageously embrace something new. If the writing of dead men inspires the soul, then it should not be taken away from that person. Because if it’s tried, it will rock their world and cause cataclysms of doubt too upsetting to the psyche. Better to leave well enough alone, which is what Andre did, retreated to the safety of the myths of the past.
chucksmith1982Participant
Jul 25, 2016, 2:04 AM
He started out with a grandmother who was an orthodox Christian as I recall. He himself swung between Christianity and
UB beliefs. He’d have problems with Christianity, try to find answers to his questions from the Christians he knew, wouldn’t find them, go back to the UB, repeat cycle. I suggest you read his entire story for more insight. In the end he was pointed to those passages in Joshua and 1 Kings. When he read those and combined them with that UB paragraph, a spiritual conflict arose. He was unable to resolve it via the UB community. He was able to resolve it via the Christian community that he associated with at the time.

Though this is not enough to dissuade me from my belief in the UB, it is the only question thatI have not been able to answer as a result of my first reading of the UB. Thanks to the UB community, I was able to answer the others. I associate with people who study the Bible both regularly and deeply. They value their Bible study as much as I value my study of the UB. If this point comes up in discussion with one of them, assuming that I can get anyone of them to actually read the ub, what am I suppose to say? They could argue that, if the ub is supposed to stand or fall on its’ own, that by this itom it falls. While I could point out the same thing about the Bible, I would like to resolve this spiritual conflict not only for the sake of discussion, but for myself as well.
BonitaParticipant
Jul 25, 2016, 2:26 AM
The only problem is that there is no conflict. So how you expect us to help you solve a problem that doesn’t exist is beyond my pay grade. I wish you a lot of luck with it.
JulianParticipant
Jul 25, 2016, 3:12 AM
Hi Chuck,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Yes I can see what you are getting at. This does appear to be a mistaken quotation of the Biblical account at 1Kings16:34. The implication of the UB author, a Brilliant Evening Star, seems to be that this detestable practice was sanctioned at the time by “the word of the Lord”. But the Biblical account clearly adds “which He spoke by Joshua the son of Nun”, presumably alluding to the prophetic account at Joshua 6:26. Here, Joshua pronounces a curse on anyone who rebuilds the city of Jericho, predicting that they will do so with the loss of their firstborn and youngest sons. It was not sanctioning child sacrifice.

I’m not sure what to make of this. Perhaps the author knows something about the original Biblical text that we don’t know….or perhaps this is a mistake. But I don’t see it as a deliberate lie! It would be good to hear from anyone else who could shine more light on this matter.
chucksmith1982Participant
Jul 25, 2016, 7:34 AM
Read the second post. I was trying to edit my post and somehow I wound up with two of them. Sorry about that. Thanks Julian. Now you know what I’ve been going through the past half decade or so. I’ve yet to find an answer to this rather annoying question.

I don’t know if I copied it or not, but Aundray laments the fact that UB students don’t have a better fammiluarity with the Bible. For that reason, and because those I associate with for the most part are Christian, I am taking a Bible course. It is a five year radio program called Through The Bible. The teacher is very conservative. It takes the listener back and forth between the testaments though. It is not in biblical order. A book schedule that tells wich book is to be studied in the program order is available on the site along with a program schedule that covers three months or so. If any one is interested, you can listen to each program or download all six gigibites of the program in mp3 format along with notes and outlines at

http://www.ttb.org

It is the parent site.

http://www.thruthebible.ca

This is a secondary site but the schedule is easier to find here, plus this site has one or two minor details that the parent site doesn’t have, for example, the fact that each program is about 22 minutes long. It is also easier to get around in some respects. I plan to be done long before five years. I downloaded the entire program along with a KJV bible and the book schedule. I expect it will take me half that time to complete the program.

Another Bible study resource is

http://www.blueletterbible.org

This website has multiple Bible versions, commentaries, bible dictionaries, a concordance, a bible encyclapedia (I think) in short everything a serious Bible student would need. I plan to make use of it during my study. If only someone would do something like that with the ub… Maybe one day…
chucksmith1982Participant
Jul 25, 2016, 7:57 AM
Thanks Julian. Now you know what I’ve been going through the past half decade or so. I’ve yet to find an answer to this rather annoying question.

I don’t know if I copied it or not, but Aundray laments the fact that UB students don’t have a better fammiluarity with the Bible. For that reason, and because those I associate with for the most part are Christian, I am taking a Bible course. It is a five year radio program called Through The Bible. The teacher is very conservative though. It takes the listener back and forth between the testaments, instead of biblical order. A book schedule that tells wich book is to be studied in the program order is available on the site along with a program schedule that covers three months or so. If any one is interested, you can listen to each program or download all six gigibites of the program in mp3 format along with notes and outlines at

http://www.ttb.org

It is the parent site.

http://www.thruthebible.ca

This is a secondary site but the schedule is easier to find here, plus this site has one or two minor details that the parent site doesn’t have, for example, the fact that each program is about 22 minutes long. It is also easier to get around in some respects. I plan to be done long before five years. I downloaded the entire program along with a KJV bible and the book schedule. I expect it will take me half that time to complete the program.

Another Bible study resource is

http://www.blueletterbible.org

This website has multiple Bible versions, commentaries, bible dictionaries, a concordance, a bible encyclapedia (I think) in short everything a serious Bible student would need. I plan to make use of it during my study. If only someone would do something like that with the ub… Maybe one day… And yes, I know about the index/concordex. I mean a paragraph by paragraph ub study where everything is broken down. There is a difference in being told what to believe and being offered a guide through the text.

This ttb program is more like a guide through the Bible although the teacher does his share of trying to convert. This particular program has been used as the soul means of training some pastors of churches in foreign countries for the past few decades. That is not to say that there are not other programs, just that this one has a good reputation.
JulianParticipant
Jul 25, 2016, 8:13 AM
Hi Chuck,

I commend you for wanting to get a broader and deeper understanding of the Bible. In the UB, Jesus demonstrated a comprehensive knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures and he used them selectively and successfully to promote his gospel of the kingdom. I think it behooves us to get to know the theological source of our fellows in order to emphasize the beliefs we may have in common and to build positively on that foundation.

I have been thinking about the apparent misquoting of 1Kings 16:34 and have come to several conclusions. I think Bonita put her finger on it when she mentioned what the UB has to say about ‘cursing’….that it is a primitive practice that has nothing to do with truth, beauty and goodness, the matchless personality of our Universal Father. I will say more when I’ve thought it through more thoroughly.

Peace!
BonitaParticipant
Jul 25, 2016, 10:49 AM
Why is it assumed that TUB misquoted the Bible? Isn’t it more likely that the Bible has been mistranslated over the years and TUB is offering the original wording? That’s the way I see it, especially since foundation sacrifices have been proven archeologically to have been widespread practices at that time in history. Hiel sacrificed his sons and there was no curse fulfilled. Hiel cursed himself, which is what usually happens. People do stupid things to themselves and God has no hand in it. Also, the whole idea of Jericho’s walls coming down by some kind of miracle from God is just ridiculous. God would never take sides in a war. That idea is totally ridiculous and evidence that the Bible was written by miracle minded ancient men willing to bend facts to suit their own religious agenda. I still don’t see how this is an issue so tremendous that it causes a faith crisis. And what about Noah and his ark? TUB says it never existed. Wouldn’t that fact rock the world of Bible fundamentalists far more than this? I’m not getting it.
nelsongParticipant
Jul 25, 2016, 3:09 PM
If a superhuman being/s brought down Jericho’s walls would it not be involvement from the Most Highs?
BonitaParticipant
Jul 25, 2016, 5:31 PM
No superhuman beings brought down Jericho. The whole story is a myth according to historians. From wikipedia:

In the face of the archaeological evidence, the biblical story of the fall of Jericho “cannot have been founded on genuine historical sources”. Almost all scholars agree that the book of Joshua holds little of historical value. It was written by authors far removed from the times it depicts, and was intended to illustrate a theological scheme in which Israel and her leaders are judged by their obedience to the teachings and laws (the covenant) set down in the book of Deuteronomy, rather than as history in the modern sense. The story of Jericho, and the conquest generally, probably represents the nationalist propaganda of the kings of Judah and their claims to the territory of the Kingdom of Israel after 722 BCE; these chapters were later incorporated into an early form of Joshua written late in the reign of king Josiah (reigned 640–609 BCE), and the book was revised and completed after the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians in 586, and possibly after the return from the Babylonian exile in 538. The combination of archaeological evidence and analysis of the composition history and theological purposes of the Book of Joshua lies behind the judgement of archaeologist William G. Dever that the battle of Jericho “seems invented out of whole cloth.”

I still don’t understand what the issue is here. Is it about TUB saying that Joshua, speaking for God, put a curse on Jericho and that is why Hiel had to sacrifice his sons during the rebuilding of the wall? Or, is it that TUB is saying that Joshua, speaking for God, told Hiel to sacrifice his sons? Or is it the fact that TUB fails to mention Joshua at all?

Chances are that originally the words were written in scripture just as they appear in TUB. It makes sense to me that burying children alive “according to the word of the Lord” of Baal, was actually written out of the scriptures and changed to what it is today in order to make it look as though the children were lost because of a curse by Joshua who was channeling God.

Joshua’s curse reflects the belief that Jericho was a symbol of God’s victory over the heathens in favor of his chosen people and was therefore sacred. The fact that it was taken over by Baal worshipers when Ahab was king of Israel is an embarrassment. Of course the writer wanted to make it look like God took revenge on Hiel, a Baal worshipper, for denigrating God’s power and attempting to rebuild the walls he tore down for the Israelites, his chosen ones. The whole thing is one big myth and TUB does a good job of revealing it for what it is. God, nor any other superhuman being, tore down the walls of Jericho. Neither did God get angry and kill children. The whole thing is beyond silly.
AnonymousInactive
Jul 25, 2016, 8:53 PM

chucksmith1982 wrote:

His question had to do with the phrase “according to the word of the lord.” He said that the ub made it look like God sanctioned human sacrifice in this instance and the Bible clearly said that the one who rebuilt the wall would be cursed. He said that the bible didn’t say that the sons were sacrificed and that they could have died of anything. He couldn’t reconsyle the two accounts.

chucksmith1982: I really don’t understand why there should be a question at all regarding the way the text is presented in the UB?

(981.3) 89:6.6 A petty king in Palestine, in building the walls of Jericho, “laid the foundation thereof in Abiram, his first-born, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son, Segub.” At that late date, not only did this father put two of his sons alive in the foundation holes of the city’s gates, but his action is also recorded as being “according to the word of the Lord.” Moses had forbidden these foundation sacrifices, but the Israelites reverted to them soon after his death. The twentieth-century ceremony of depositing trinkets and keepsakes in the cornerstone of a new building is reminiscent of the primitive foundation sacrifices.

It seems that in this paragraph, which is presenting this information as an example of the “Evolution of Human Sacrifice”, it seems apparent that by the use of “but his action is also recorded as being”, “according to the word of the Lord”, is merely an indication that it was recorded, in this case, in the Bible, that this action was once performed as having been a practice which was forbidden by Moses. It also indicates that “the Israelites reverted” back to these practices for what ever reason but does not indicate that it was directly because to was “according to the word of the Lord.”

I see no reason why this narration would indicate that the UB indicates that this practice was ever directed by “the Lord”?

I’m wondering what the problem is with “He couldn’t reconsyle the two accounts.” Which two actions specifically, as noted in Joshua 6? If so, one must read those verses in the Bible using the story line leading into each presentation?

If I’m missing something here, please present additional detail as to why there should be any question at all as to this narration?
chucksmith1982Participant
Jul 26, 2016, 6:35 AM
The whole problem has to do with, as someone else mentioned, the curse. According to what Aundray said, and according to Christian belief, and I suppose Jewish belief as well, After the distruction of Jerico by God Joshua cursed the one who should rebuild this city according to God’s command with the loss of both his oldest and youngest sons. If it wasn’t by God’s command, it could be argued that inspiration played a part I suppose. Anyway, the ub doesn’t mention that. Aundray, and most serious Bible students I know view/would view the omission of the part about the curse and I forget the parts that are left out of the ub passage, as evidence of misleading on the part of the ub. The only insight I can give you here is to suggest that you read the entirety of Aundrays’ story. It will give you an insight into the mind of a conservative Christian and would perhaps answer any questions that you have as to why he rejected, and those that hold his mindset, would reject the ub. On the surface it appears that he would have a valid and objective argument. When I first read the ub, and this was before I knew anything about Aundray, I knew enough about the Bible that I raised the same objection myself.

I was still curious about the ub, and so I decided that if I was ggoing to explore someone elses faith I should explore my own first. Thus I read completely the Bible for the first time. By the time I finished with it though, if it wasn’t for my reading of the ub, I would have rejected God. I however, decided upon a program of Bible reading that used no outside sources. I didn’t consult any commentaries, I just let the text speak for itself. Now, as I said, I’m going to do an actual through the bible bible study wich will study virtually every verse. I hope to gain not only biblical knowledge so that I may relate better to Christians, but I also hope to gain a better understanding of my former faith.
Nigel NunnParticipant
Jul 26, 2016, 9:31 AM
Chuck – thanks for persevering in your exploration! As I see it, your experience illuminates the issue faced by both the “Angels of the Churches” and the “seraphim of progress“. And why a culture’s religious sensibilities must be evolved carefully. And slowly. Personally, I had an excellent grounding in the 4th epochal revelation before meeting the 5th, so my transition (while stormy) was also quite rapid.

Seeing cultural evolution in context helps me to appreciate the situation of those still engaged with the 3rd epochal revelation, i.e. that “the one true god” is trustworthy (plus all powerful, all merciful, all knowing, etc.). Clearly, transition to Urantia’s next age is a long-term project, requiring much love and wisdom.

Nigel
BonitaParticipant
Jul 26, 2016, 11:51 AM
People fear the truth for what it might do to them. But isn’t the Old Testament God so much more fearful than the truth? Oh wait . . . not if you are one of the chosen people. The Old Testament God does ferocious things to protect the chosen people, so in that case, I guess he’s a good guy and maybe worth hanging on to.

I think one of the reasons some people have such a hard time embracing revelation, or truth, is because it rips away the security blanket of erroneous thinking. This is dangerous if it leaves a gaping hole, remembering that all thought is just scaffolding. Without some kind of replacement scaffolding, there is nothing to hold onto. That is why Jesus said to never take things out of the heart of men, only put the truth in. I think people reject TUB when they don’t have sufficient infrastructure in their scaffolding to withstand the holes of truth often leaves them with. In this case, rather than continue to explain the truth to this person, I would keep reiterating the fact that TUB teaches us that God is compassionate and loving to all people, that he does not curse some and favor others, that he loves everyone, all comers. Eventually, that truth should crowd out error.

141:6:2 Simon, Simon, how many times have I instructed you to refrain from all efforts to take something out of the hearts of those who seek salvation? How often have I told you to labor only to put something into these hungry souls? Lead men into the kingdom, and the great and living truths of the kingdom will presently drive out all serious error.
BradlyParticipant
Jul 26, 2016, 5:09 PM
chuck – Best wishes in your reading, research, and study of the Bible. As one who was raised and baptized in a fundamentalist Bible church, I find Andre’s claims that most UB students lack familiarity with the Bible to be lacking in fact. I’ve met many a Biblical scholar and student in our community – both Christian and Jewish – who have long treasured and studied the Good Book.

I would suggest a red-letter version of the NT to begin your quest for understanding. One thing I discovered as a child of 11-12 was how contradictory was both the OT and the letters/doctrines of Paul to the Jesusonian gospel found within the sayings, teachings, parables, and other stories of Jesus.

The challenge for my Christian friends is trying to reconcile the gospel OF Jesus and the so called gospel ABOUT Jesus. My early church taught that every word in the Bible was the word OF God, and this brought great confusion to a devoted Bible student like me even before I was a teen age Preacher Boy! Is it eye for an eye? or turn the other cheek? Is God angry and vengeful? or loving and merciful? Where did the children of Adam and Eve find those wives? where did the land of Nod come from? Aren’t dinosaurs and fossils and geological history and astronomical observances indicative that evolution IS a creation process? How did science and religion get so disconnected when there is obviously one reality for discovery, observation, origin, source, and order?

When I began researching how Hebrew scholars view their records and books of the law, etc., I discovered that my fundamentalist Christian believers had a far more rigid and narrow belief system about the OT than the people whose history is recorded therein. An interesting perplexion at the time and still today.

I came to view such fundamentalism as blind, corrupt, bankrupt, and based on fear rather than being based upon the actual good news Jesus delivered that we are all beloved children of paternal Creator in one family (kingdom) founded in and ruled by love! I studied and tried and tried….but I could not find this blessed truth and fact much anywhere in the Bible. It is in there. But there’s lots of thorns on that rose bush!!

Again …..best wishes!! I hope the Urantia Book might continue to inspire your hope and faith and trust in this friendly universe!

Bradly = )

"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."
chucksmith1982Participant
Jul 27, 2016, 6:53 AM
Thanks Bradly! I appreciate your words.

Bonita said something earlier that I’d like to address. She called the story of Jerico ridiculous. To that I have to add this. Nonbelievers call the way that the ub was given to us ridiculous. Be carefull of using that word, particually if it involves belief.

To those such as Bradly who have made a study of the Bible, what do you think of this passage? How is the biblical account to be interpreted from a strictly biblical view? An ub view?
chucksmith1982Participant
Jul 27, 2016, 7:30 AM
Nigel, you said “the one true god” is trustworthy (plus all powerful, all merciful, all knowing, etc.) Are you saying that this is not true? Doesn’t the Universal Father indeed know all? And what do you mean when you call that viewpoint the third revelation?

Bonita, you appear to be dodging the issue. Error (regardless if it is in the ub or the bible) must be explained in order to be clarified and the truth found. The reasons that the ub is rejected are many fold. Some people can’t deal with the “science fiction” elimant of the ub. some people find passages like the ones that I sited for this discussion and see the error that I mentioned. For others it may be different passages sited but the same conclusion. For some it is the science mentioned in the ub. For others it may be the apparently racest language in the ub. As ub believers, we must have answers other than the one Bonita gave. In essence, she said, “Just keep mentioning the truths in the ub and the perceived errors won’t matter to the person.” If I’m reading a book on truth and I find a provable error in the book it is my duty to find out all I can about that error. Why was it made? Can it be corrected in the next edition of the book if the author is contacted? Can the author explain the error in such a way that I can figure out why he made it? These questions can not be answered in reference to the ub. All we can do is conjecture. So, fellow ub believers, start conjecturing! And be sure to be able to back up your arguments with concrete evidence if possible.

For the sake of argument, imagine that I am a Bible believer who has just read the UB. This is true of many of the ub students out there or so it appears. How would you convince me, if I came to you and sited these passages, that the ub was valid? That it was for me? Remember, in this sanereo, I am looking critically at the sited passages. On the surface, I see the error in the passages here. What is your answer as believers in the text? And remember, I want objective answers, not the subjective answers I’ve been getting so far! And I, as this new potential convert, will not let you dodge the issue either!
BonitaParticipant
Jul 27, 2016, 11:55 AM

chucksmith1982 wrote: Bonita, you appear to be dodging the issue.

I don’t think so. I appear to be the only one who has presented any research on the topic including several wikipedia articles. I’ve addressed the issue thoroughly and see no error at all. I think the error you are seeing is that TUB does not quote the modern Bible which has been rewritten and retranslated many times over.

chucksmith1982 wrote: Error (regardless if it is in the ub or the bible) must be explained in order to be clarified and the truth found.

First of all, there is no error in TUB. Second of all, I explained it several times. The original Bible story is a myth. TUB has revealed many of the Bible stories to be myths. It goes into great length to explain what really happened. It also explains that the Bible is neither history nor the word of God.

chucksmith1982 wrote: The reasons that the ub is rejected are many fold. Some people can’t deal with the “science fiction” elimant of the ub.

The reason why many people reject the Bible is because they can’t deal with the science fiction element in it, also known as human fabricated myth. The walls of Jericho may have come down, but God did not tear them down. God did not bring a world wide flood. God did not create the world in seven days. God did not create Adam and Eve as the first humans.

chucksmith1982 wrote: In essence, she said, “Just keep mentioning the truths in the ub and the perceived errors won’t matter to the person.”

I said to do that because it is following Jesus’ teaching. Do you have a problem with following Jesus’ teaching? If so, then even the Bible would not give you much direction. Are you saying that Jesus’ teaching is wrong?

chucksmith1982 wrote: This is true of many of the ub students out there or so it appears. How would you convince me, if I came to you and sited these passages, that the ub was valid?

Here’s the problem Chuck. There is no reason to convince you of anything. Either you accept what is written in TUB or you don’t. No one can make you think anything you don’t want to think. If you’re hell bent on misunderstanding something, then nothing anyone says will change your misunderstanding. I personally do not come here to convince people of anything. That’s converting people. I do not want to convert you. TUB is a revelation. Either it opens your mind or it doesn’t. I cannot open your mind for you and no one else can do that either. You have to do it yourself. All I can do is share my understanding, which I have thoroughly done on this subject, and you have rejected it.

If you insist on believing that God punishes people, then nothing I say can change that. You have to discover the real God for yourself before you can let go of such an ancient (and ridiculous in my opinion) idea. Jesus told the story of Job to explain this in very thing great detail. The Old Testament God is God as he was understood by men thousands and thousands of years ago. They did not understand God very well, which is why they sacrificed their children to appease him. For heaven’s sake, do you really believe that God said this:

The Lord said to Moses, “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. Leviticus 21:16-20

Do you really believe that God would deny a dwarf, a cripple, a blind person or someone with damaged testicles to approach him? Come on man, didn’t Jesus heal these people and say they are all welcome and loved? The Old Testament God is not the real God; he is the God ancient primitive men thought he was. We have learned a lot more about the true nature of God from Jesus in the fourth epochal revelation. Now we have the fifth which goes into greater depth as to God’s true character. Either you like this new revelation of God or you like the one from thousands and thousands of years ago that came from the frightened and unenlightened minds of men long gone from this earth. It is your choice.

And how about this story about Elijah from the Bible:

And he went up from thence to Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, little boys came out of the city and mocked him, saying: Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And looking back, he saw them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord: and there came forth two bears out of the forest, and tore of them two and forty boys. And from thence he went to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria. 4 Kings 2:23-24

Do you really think that God would maul 42 kids to death for calling Elijah bald? Do you really think Elijah had the power to tell God what to do? Don’t you think that is a bit ridiculous? I do. I think it’s more than ridiculous; I think it’s hilarious.

chucksmith1982 wrote: And remember, I want objective answers, not the subjective answers I’ve been getting so far! And I, as this new potential convert, will not let you dodge the issue either!

Whoa! A threat! Where’s your sword young man, we will duel to the death! You know something, I don’t want to convert you. I really don’t care what you believe, not one bit. So, do you want to study TUB or not? If not, stick with the Bible like many people do. It’s not my job, or anyone else’s job, to prove anything to you. You have to do that all by yourself. Revelation is something you have to find in your soul. None of us can put it there. The Spirit puts it there. None of us can make you see it either. That is your job, and your job alone, otherwise it would not qualify as a revelation. Get it?
Van AmadonParticipant
Jul 27, 2016, 1:01 PM
“They who take the sword shall perish by the sword.”

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